General talk:Uutak Mythos

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Easter Eggs[edit]

The following two notes were removed from the page:

  • In ESO, M'aiq makes a detrimental comment about bats: "M'aiq despises bats. Tiny, winged skeevers. Disgusting!" This could either be referring to the abundance of giant bats in the game or the Uutak Mythos.
  • The Cliff Striders, introduced in the Morrowind Chapter for ESO, might have taken inspiration from a Uutak mythos piece, which describes the mutation of giant bats in Vvardenfell into more reptilian-esque forms due to the effects of Red Mountain, one of the Towers, which made them adjust better to the environment. Cliff Striders, coincidentally, look like lizard-bats.

Since I can't find anything backing these two up, I haven't restored them. However, this isn't a lorespace article; as long as they aren't stated as fact, I don't see the harm in suggesting the Uutak Mythos was an influence. However, it'd be good to first view some sources or hear some arguments for or against their inclusion. —Legoless (talk) 22:55, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that the majority of the easter eggs were pointed out to me by other people, and not just something I believe in. There was also one I forgot to include - the 'Glimmering Foxbat who writes the Shadow Magic book, which has strong Echmeri connations. And in regards to the Screeching Echkin Tavern, the devs would've removed it if they didn't want it to be a thing. Also, thanks for adding the LA references.
In regards to Maiq, I'll admit that one is definitely up in the air and possibly not related at all. And in regards to the Cliff Strider/Echkin thing, the echkin link I included in the article is what I was referencing in regards to possible inspiration. I'm not saying any of these are possible fact, I'm just saying they could or could not be potential shout-outs to Echmer (which ZOS is definitely knowledgeable about). I'm leaving my personal bias at the door, so I would just others to do the same. IceFireWarden (talk) 23:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I see no problem with them, specially since the whole section is already named potential easter eggs, and while these two are pretty vaguely connected to the Mythos, the second one in special helps bringing up some of the Uutak lore, so I don't really see why it would be such an issue to have them on the page, though maybe wait for the release of ESO: Morrowind? And, really, there is hardly any way to confirm those two as any more than "possibly connected" anyway. Bryn (talk) 01:02, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) So I'm going to try and come at this entirely objectively, given that I knew nothing about Uutak before creating this page, aside from the passing references in exactly those Loremaster's Archives. Firstly, when I was reading through it before uploading it, I did consider that some of the listed Easter Eggs were tenuous. The standard practice for including Easter Eggs is that sufficient people must agree that it is an Easter Egg, and an Easter Egg is something that is included intentionally as a hidden joke or message. I think, in order to remove the connotations of what "Easter Egg" means, "References" is a safer and more neutral word to use. And since this is likely to drag on if we don't resolve it completely, I want to post my views on all of the references (in their current state):
  • On the two that were removed, I think the first one is too tenuous to be specifically referencing Uutak. Bats are a thing in Elder Scrolls lore, and without further evidence M'aiq is just referencing those bats. As the second one points out within itself, I think the similarity there is just a coincidence. If the similarity is supposed to be present, it would be more obvious.
  • On echkin in Loremaster's Archive; I'm afraid I don't see the in-universe acknowledgement of echkin as an alternate name for giant bats. All that I see is the acknowledgement of bat-cheese.
  • On Hoodoc in Loremaster's Archive; I think it is wrong to say that it was "inadvertently" mentioned in one of the answers. The Thieves Guild knows nothing about Yokudan deities, so would not know to ignore something that may not exist. In a parallel, imagine someone asked the Mages Guild about the political situation in the Breton Duchy of Dumnonia; it's a fan-created kingdom that doesn't exist in lore, but they may not know that. It would be perfectly reasonable for someone to say: "Dumnonia? I'm afraid I don't know much about the lesser city-states of High Rock." That statement is neither an acknowledgement that the duchy exists, nor an inadvertent inclusion. It's simply restating the question because the respondent doesn't know anything about it.
  • On contraband; if Uutak is the originator of the concept of "bat-cheese", then yes, that is certainly a reference. I would say "bat-winged men" in the second one is also a likely reference to Echmer, since I don't know of any other "bat-winged men".
  • While the responses of the Schick interviews are in-universe, I don't think there's enough evidence to say that the setting was official. To use my previous example again, I could have conducted an "in-universe" interview with a character in Dumnonia. As with Loremaster's Archive, the only things that can be safely considered "official" are Schick's character responses, not the setup that they were presented in. Particularly considering that they aren't actually hosted on the ESO website.
Now I am quite content to concur that ZOS seem to like the Uutak lore and are quite happy to include references to it in their official releases that involve fan interactions, but at the same time they always manage to avoid producing any official in-universe response that outright confirms (or denies) any Uutak-related content. To that end, I would propose a rewording of the remaining References:
  • In the Loremaster's Archives, the use of the word echkin in exchange for giant bat in some of the questions seems to be accepted as an alternative name for the species, although the word itself is never actually acknowledged nor used in the in-universe answers to those questions.[1]
  • Also in the Archives, Hoodoc is mentioned in one of the answers in direct response to a question about him.[2] He was mentioned beforehand in the questions of another Archive, where he was stated to be an enemy of Demiprince Fa-Nuit-Hen.[3]
  • ESO's Update 6 introduced Contraband items that you can steal in-game, each of which comes with flavor text. Two of them may be subtle references to Echmer: the ""Cheesemaker of Goldfolly" Engraving", with the text "Framed engraving of the famous scene showing the making of bat-cheese from the long-lost giant dairy bats of Goldfolly." refers to their cream-making, while the "Matching Ivory Spice Shakers" refers to their appearance: "A set of ivory spice shakers, in stylized shapes of bat-winged men. Considered to be in poor taste by certain Rivenspire nobles."
  • A "Screeching Echkin Tavern" in Ska'vyn was mentioned in two in-universe interviews conducted with Lawrence Schick (New Life Festival Interview Part 2 and Homestead Interview), but the setting for these was not officially ratified. Ska'vyn is however mentioned as a source of bat-cheese in the previously-referenced Loremaster's Archive.[1]
Enodoc (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
I think those revisions will work pretty good, if everyone else agrees (I can't add them in though, I'm confined to mobile and typing on this phone sucks and hard to do) and I support the change to Potential References. In regards to the interviews, I had assumed that they were considered official like all other in-game/out-of-game interviews are (I think most of them were never posted on actual sites) and the interviews themselves always go through a fact check to ensure that nothing in it needs to be removed through editing. Other than that, everything seems pretty cool.IceFireWarden (talk)