Lore talk:Akatosh

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Akatosh IS NOT the One[edit]

The One was a religious concept invented by Alessia to supplement the worship of the Eight Divines (which INCLUDED Akatosh!) and was the faith of the Alessian Doctrines of monotheism. The One is basically an appropriation of the Nordic Allmaker, and represents a fusion of Anu and Padomay, the Godhead totality the universe sprang from. Oblivion's sloppiness in the placement of the dragonfires (not to mention the irrelevance and misleading nature of the dragonfires in the first place) is responsible for this confusion. Do not revert the article until you have made your case. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) on 27 July 2008

Matches what i've read, although a few references and maybe a note about the disparity in Oblivion would be helpful. --BenouldTC 20:32, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
It's not disparity since Oblivion never says anything different. Oblivion just portrays stuff that doesn't make sense and doesn't give a crap about who the One is. Details would be more helpful in the Temple of the One article. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talkcontribs) on 27 July 2008
Like it or not, Oblivion is part of Elder Scrolls lore, and to simply state that Oblivion is wrong about certain lore elements is a fallacy, because Oblivion IS part of the lore. If statements made in Oblivion are contradictory towards statements found elsewhere in the lore, this does not necessarily invalidate one or the other version of the lore. It simply means that there is a discrepency which should be discussed from both sides. There is not necessarily one and only one interpretation for what is seen in the lore, and not just because this is a fictional universe. (There are similar contradictory myths if you look at any real-world mythological source as well, or even at supposed historical events. Sometimes we just don't know what really happened.) This is why we prefer that statements made pertaining to lore be linked to in-game (or at least Bethesda-originated) sources, allowing the readers to see and decide for themselves which version of the lore they choose to believe. --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:35, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
You don't understand. Oblivion did not present an alternate version of the One. Oblivion merely used old information presented in a confusing way. Nothing has changed with the One in TES IV. And I just gave you an entire page of sources and more. There are not two sides to this, so please don't lecture me without cause.— Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talkcontribs) on 27 July 2008
I thought that the one was Talos. 83.59.146.119 14:35, 20 January 2009 (EST)
The One was the god of the Alessian Order, which is like Constantine declaring Christianity the official religion of Rome, banning all other religions, music, and dancing, and then leading crusades for a while until the new church broke up and everyone went back to worshiping Saturn and Mars and the rest, but kept the old temples because the stone looked nice.Temple-Zero 15:05, 20 January 2009 (EST)
I can see why it can be confusing seeing as Oblivion doesn't mention anything about two different religions. If that's the case then I agree that all information should be in Lore section of the Temple of One. That page could use some attention anyway. (Gadianzero 18:34, 20 January 2009 (EST))
We have an Alessian Order page, though it is even more stubbish.Temple-Zero 18:47, 20 January 2009 (EST)
If the information intermingles too much with each other then I think they should be merged into one large article with one redirected into another. I can't say I know too much about this area though. (Gadianzero 01:56, 21 January 2009 (EST))
I Think you are getting to into it. If you think about it on a standpoint saying that its possible that the people of the empire worship Akatosh and not Anu or Padomay possible do to a mistake in worship that happened in some untold point of the elder scrolls universe timeline.So there is another quite possible answer. I also appreciate even if it was unplanned that there are different ways for the lore to be taken so you can keep a good conversation going.

I Think The Oblivion Lore Of Akatosh Should Be On Featured Articles And Heres Why![edit]

Well I Think Akatosh Is An Important Charecter Considering He Is The One To Save All Of tamriel in theory So i ask for a new featured ArticleDarkakaviri666 12:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The criteria for giving an article "featured" status don't include importance. To quote from UESPWiki:Featured Articles: "Featured articles are ... of the highest quality and should be held up as an example for other articles. Articles are ... review[ed] ... for content, style, completeness, and overall quality" I'm afraid this article doesn't come close. It needs more detail along with references before it can be considered. It's better than a lot of our Lore articles, but that's not saying much. rpeh •TCE 13:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Someone less lazy than me want to add something?[edit]

Should the story of Moraelyn getting his ebon blade from Akatosh or any of the other Akatosh related stuff from the Biography of King Edward be included? 209.136.161.135 16:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Auriel's Bow[edit]

Does Auriel's Bow and shield count as his artifact(Vvardfell 13:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

Akatosh/Auriel/Alduin[edit]

Alduin and Auriel is the nordic and aldmeri aspects of Akatosh. I've tried to figure out which one is the "correct" one. I've come to the conclution that Auriel and Akatosh is one and the same, only worshipped in different ways, while Alduin might be a different existing god. If we look at Akatosh and Alduin, we see that they share many similarities in terms of personality, their role in the mythology, and other things. Also, as stated in "Shezarr and the Divines", Akatosh IS Auriel, chosen by Alessia as the head of the Imperial pantheon so that the needs that up untill then had worshipped the aldmeri pantheon would relate to it easier, while her nord allies could also relate to him as Alduin. But there are key differences as well; while both Akatosh and Auriel is the god of time, Auriel was an Aldmeri god-king, and only associated with a dragon, while akatosh IS a dragon, a similarity shared with the nordic Alduin. This might be explained by the possibility that Auriel might not have been a dragon while he walked the earth in the dawn era, but later prefered to appear as a dragon after his ascension. Alduin however, is the god of time in another way, he is more of a doomsday god, who destroys the old world and creates the new one. So in terms of what they are god of, which I think is the most important, we can see that all of them share similarities, but Alduin governs the aspect of "time" in a very different way. I would therefor conclude that all of these three are two different divine beings, Akatosh/Auriel, and Alduin. 2.150.139.201 16:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Alduin's relation to the other two will likely be expanded for Skyrim. Until more information comes to light, it has to be assumed that they are all one in the same. Ruptga, head of the Yokudan pantheon, is likely to be another aspect of Akatosh, yet he shares almost no similarities with the Tamrielic versions. In comparison, Alduin shares many traits with the other two. The gods seem to be purposefully mysterious and abstract, so its doubtful that Bethesda will clear up the differences between each cultural version of the God of Time. --Legoless 16:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
What I think is interesting is the fact that different religions in the elder scrolls lore contradict with each other, much like the major religions in our world. But the question remains if this is intended by Bethesda, or simply accidental, as if they forget to check their own lore before creating new material. A possible explenation of the contradiction could be that many of the religions or at least bits of them are actually fictional, but unlike in our world, there is actually evidence of divinities in the elder scrolls, like the Heart of Lorkhan and the avatar of Akatosh in Oblivion, which creates the question: Which form of the different aspects of these gods (Lorkhan, Akatosh, Auriel, Shezarr, Shor...) is the one closest to that gods actual nature? Jyggorath 14:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Isn't Alduin the Dragon God that wakes up again to destroy the world in TESV: Skyrim? If so should this be in the Akatosh article? Or is there already an Alduin article? And.. so from what I've read they are one in the same? Does this mean you actually have to defeat a God in Skyrim? --D. Gemini 03:30, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Wait...In Oblivion, it is specifically stated that the Nine Divines, unlike the Daedra, do not manifest themselves physically (that is why you had to retrieve the cuiras of Tiber Septim). However, Alduin very clearly has a physical manifestation, as indicated by both the record on Alduin's wall and the various refrences so far given concerning the plot of the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. If this is true, then Alduin cannot be Akatosh. Plus, the Dovahkiin are blessed by the gods (as specifically stated by Tod Howard himself) and Akatosh is one of the gods (and in fact the most likely to be able to bless one as a Dragon Born) so it would be illogical to think that he is Alduin as that would mean he blessed the player with the ability to kill him. — Unsigned comment by 158.158.240.230 (talk) at 00:21 on 2 October 2011 (GMT)
Alduin isn't a part of the Nine Divines. In Oblivion, it's stated that the Nine don't create artifacts, not that they don't manifest themselves in an avatar. --Legoless 00:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but the importance of the artifacts in the first place was that Deadric and (in theory) Divine artifacts contained the blood of their creators. My point is that, as stated by Martin in Oblivion, the Nine Divines don't have physical forms of any kind from which to get blood. Deadra do, so you could use any deadric artifact you wished. But in order to get the blood of a Divine, you had to get the blood of Tiber Septim, because he later ascended to become Talos, thus making his blood divine. Alduin is not, as far as we can tell, an avatar (a projection of existance) like Martin became, but in fact a very real dragon. And that is where my point lies: if it is true, as stated in Oblivion, that the Nine do not manifest themselves in true physical forms, and Alduin has a true physical form (as the indications show), then Alduin cannot possibly be Akatosh. Of course, we cannot be sure of this until Skyrim comes out. — Unsigned comment by 174.252.177.125 (talk) at 21:04 on 2 October 2011 (GMT)
Stating that Alduin has a physical form has no basis. The big black dragon could be just as much an avatar as Akatosh's appearance in Oblivion, or the various members of the Nine Divines who appeared as mortals in Morrowind. Of course Alduin isn't Akatosh; Akatosh is the Imperial version of the Time Dragon, while Alduin in the Nordic version. Unless you have references to back up your claims, they're as good as speculation. --Legoless 20:10, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Now that Skyrim has been released, and that I personally have seen him crush the wall of a tower (a physical object) with his metalic, ornamental face, I find it safe to assume that Alduin is actualy physical, and therefor not Akatosh nor an aspect of him. What he is however will need research, But as of now, he has been confirmed to not be Alduin, by Bethesda through the words of Maiq the Lair, that Akatosh is not Alduin. ~ (Unsigned, due to formatting error)

Daggerfall references & Pic[edit]

There's some info currently on the page that only comes from Daggerfall. I couldn't figure out the best way to cite to it; don't know enough about Daggerfall. "Dialogue before the Warp in the West" or something like that might be appropriate; if anyone knows what NPC(s) actually communicate this info in Daggerfall, even better.

I moved the stained-glass image of Akatosh a little down the page because I thought it looked better than cramming the text directly between the two images. But, meh; fiddle as you see fit. Minor Edits 23:52, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

"Events of Daggerfall" is usually fine for the reference if you can't find an exact source. --Legoless 23:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Found in every pantheon?[edit]

This article says that Akatosh is "one of two deities found in every Tamrielic religion" however he is not represented in the Dunmeri religion, as stated on our article on the different Pantheons of Tamriel. Should this not be revised to be brought in line with our other article, and changed to something like this: "one of two deities found in every Tamrielic religion, bar the Tribunal Temple? --OblivionDuruza 06:17, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The article already notes this exception.Minor Edits 08:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, that's odd, I was given the impression that it didn't, while the others did, by a user over on the Forums. May have been referring to a different page. I'll double check. (Could also have been me brining it up on the wrong page by mistake)--OblivionDuruza 13:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
isnt auriel in dunmer religion, and auriel is akatosh, right? ("From Fear to Eternity- Eddie The Head 13:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC))
Auriel is the Aldmeri variation of Akatosh yes, but the Dunmer don't worship the Nine.--OblivionDuruza 10:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Firstborn of Akatosh[edit]

This is not a line that can be taken at face value. It is loaded with implications and half truths, given that it refers to past universes.

Being a son of Akatosh in a methaphysical sense does not rule out being an aspect of Akatosh. Just look at Jesus. Furthermore, the way Alduin would have become the son of Akatosh would be by mantling in the last kalpa, which would make him a former aspect of Akatosh. Lastly, Varieties of Faith still identifies Alduin as the Nordic version of Akatosh (although this means that he is an independent being), so we can expect that this is what the citizens of Tamriel believe, while only the player character heard Alduin's shouts. This is all a little beyond the scope of the article, so let's let it be. Akatosh himself was invented by Alessia, remember.132.162.73.252 05:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

From what I've concluded through playing the game, it seems to me that Alduin and Akatosh are completely separate entities. Akatosh is, first and foremost, one of the Aedra; fundamentally "good" as far as we can use the term in context, divine, and, rightfully, a god. Alduin, however, is simply the first of Akatosh's dragon progeny; while this grants him additional powers that make him more powerful than most other dragons, this does not in any way make him a god, or even an aspect of Akatosh. In-game dialogue from Paarthurnax, who we can assume to be Alduin's immediately younger sibling, seems to show that Alduin is far more mortal than is believed by men; his reservation of the "right" to hunt in Sovngarde implies that other dragons could very well do so if Alduin did not prevent them, and the fact that the other dragons were becoming curious as to whether Alduin was strong enough to lead seems to imply that Alduin was not a God, but simply the "alpha male" of dragonkind. If Alduin was indeed a facet of Akatosh or a God in his own right, then his strength would not be questioned by his dragon siblings.
This isn't to say, however, that Alduin is a completely mortal creature. Given his unique "death" sequence in Sovngarde after being "killed" by the Dragonborn player, and the fact that his soul is not absorbed by the Dragonborn, it can be assumed that, similarly to the Daedra, he cannot be permanently killed, as opposed to other dragons, which are more or less mortal creatures.
This is, at least, what I got from playing through the storyline.
--Lee 95 04:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Long story short, this article should at least note the connection with Alduin. Basically everything Lee said is well-settled at this point. Varieties of Faith is from Morrowind, and I think it's safe to say it has been retconned. I don't mean necessarily that the "real" concept of Alduin was not already conceived at that point, but it's certain that from a lore perspective, falsehoods presented in previous times have since been rebutted by new, more reliable sources in subsequent games. Varieties of Faith pertains to the theories of the various pantheons from an Imperial perspective, like The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy, and we know that Imperial scholars were prone to perpetuate the misconception that Alduin and Akatosh were the same thing, despite the objections of the people who best understood their own beliefs.
The accuracy of the title "Firstborn of Akatosh" as applied to Alduin is not relevant here. Whether he is Akatosh, his Firstborn, an avatar of him, or none or all of the above at various times, the only thing that really matters is that readers would expect us to mention all the relevant facts, and the fact that Alduin is referred to as "Firstborn of Akatosh" in the game seems entirely relevant to me. Whether the implications it brings are misguided or not is best left to be ironed out on the forums. Minor Edits 06:25, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Warp in the West[edit]

The current line on the Warp in the West is wrong and misleading. It only refers to the Imperial cover story of the Miracle of Peace, which players and educated scholars are supposed to know is false. Akatosh did not play a benevolent role, he simply lost control of time momentarily. That's failure, not benevolence. I'm putting this here because I can't edit the article. Some sort of 'lost session data' error. If someone else could restore the edit, that would be great.Temple-Zero 22:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed the language; hopefully that will suffice. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 23:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Akatosh didn't create Auriel's artifacts[edit]

Auriel is the Altmeri name for Akatosh, but Cyrodilic and Altmeri views on Akatosh are mutually exclusive. Akatosh is a dragon that guards creation. Auriel is a man or eagle that would like to see his followers destroy it and follow him to immortality. They are, for all intents and purposes, separate beings, although both are aspects of the God of Time. So it is wrong to say that Akatosh created Auriel's artifacts.Temple-Zero 22:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Cites?Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 23:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Citations? Elaborating this issue would require the content of a dozen articles. But I think UESP should bow to the logic of the situation. The Thalmor worship Auriel, and they loathe man's very existence. The Empire's Akatosh actively defends the interests of Cyrodiil and the Empire. They are diametrically opposed beings. See the lore on the creation of the Nine Divines Pantheon and the Marukhati Selective as well. And also, in the end, we are told that the Nine do not create artifacts. Currently a search for Auriel directs to Auriel's own separate page, rather than this article, so this is not really a change.132.162.133.58 04:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I assume this is Temple-Zero? I liked your work on the Dragon Break page. I assume by what your wrote there, that Fal Droon could not explain away all the inconsistencies, that you agree with the orthodox explanation of the Middle Dawn: the Selective tried, and presumably failed, to exorcise Elven Auriel from Imperial Akatosh and instigated a Dragon Break. Which implies that they believe the two entities are, in fact, different representations of the same entity. So even if the Thalmor and Empire both loathe the idea, the Imperials, at least, more or less acknowledge this belief. So it follows that it's not false to say that Akatosh is accredited with creating those artifacts, if that underlying assumption that they are thought to be named for their creator is true. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 04:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
So ... cites? Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 04:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Since this seems to be a topic of dispute, I have put forth a compromise, putting forth both sides of the story (with The Monomyth as my source): "In the elven tradition, Auriel is accredited with creating Auriel's Shield and Auriel's Bow, and used the latter to fire the Heart of Lorkhan into what is today Red Mountain.[1] However, the cyrodiilic traditions of man do not mention these artifacts as part of their stories of Akatosh and creation, and do not provide any explanation to their existance or origins.[1]" 78.69.121.150 19:29, 12 September 2012 (GMT)
I'm fine with that general approach, but I'm not quite sure on the best way to interpret The Monomyth. It seems like it can be construed a number of ways. "Auriel pleaded with Anu to take them back, but he had already filled their places with something else. But his soul was gentler and granted Auriel his Bow and Shield, so that he might save the Aldmer from the hordes of Men." It could be read to mean that Anu created the artifacts and gave them to Auriel, for example, thus it would be wrong to say that Auriel is accredited with creating them. It would probably be safer to go with explicit ambiguity ("It is unknown ..."), or silence. Minor Edits (talk) 22:04, 12 September 2012 (GMT)
Anuiel gave the artifacts to Auri-el to battle Lorkhan. It was in a book somewhere. — Unsigned comment by 109.102.64.10 (talk) at 18:20 on 27 October 2013

Almalexia/Akatosh connection[edit]

The main article mentions needing a Citation for the Akatosh traits in Almalexia. This is directly from Varieties of Faith in the Empire. It's worth noting that this same work implies Alduin and Akatosh are two versions of the same entity, a piece of trivia disputed by some statements in Skyrim, so its veracity and impartiality are in question but it's still a belief some people have, so it's a valid section of the article. — Unsigned comment by 64.253.223.247 (talk) on 10 August 2012

That bit of the book is just Imperial colonialist propaganda, a condescending view that surely theirs is the one true faith and that the Dunmer just have a corrupted deviation from it. Almalexia was her own deity, distinct from Akatosh. Bear in mind that just because it's in the game's lore doesn't mean it's accurate. Plenty of people are incorrect ingame.--68.230.66.230 04:40, 11 February 2013 (GMT)

Akatosh's role in Skyrim[edit]

I'm new to the TES lore, so sorry, if the answer to my question is obvious. I played Skyrim fully and a bit of Oblivion. As far as I understood, Akatosh is the "(god)father" of the dragons. Then why does he take no role in Skyrim, a game that is all about dragons, especially about Akatosh's son Alduin? --91.41.140.188 08:31, 17 January 2014 (GMT)

Actually, Akatosh IS Alduin, in terms of gods in different pantheons. In the nordic pantheon, there is no Akatosh, which is why he isn't very prominent. Instead, Alduin holds the same role. Since gods in TES are real, it isn't really possible to say that they are ACTUALLY the same, but that's why Akatosh doesn't play a bigger role. Jeancey (talk) 08:41, 17 January 2014 (GMT)
So, is "Gods" and "Worship" in TES working like in Black and White, for example? If someone starts to believes in a yet unexisting god (meaning: "invent" a superior being within his imagination), this god will eventually start existing and claim a physical representation - and after it started existing this way it had existed forever already, because gods are outside of space-time? --91.41.140.188 08:50, 17 January 2014 (GMT)
They existed first. They were created first out of the void, then they, some of them more specifically than others, created everything else, including the mortal races. Jeancey (talk) 09:17, 17 January 2014 (GMT)
But how can Akatosh be Alduin, and at the same time be not him? If they exist as separate beings and in a causal, linear-time manner then, of course, Akatosh must exist in the nordic culture. Gods can be everywhere, they are gods - no matter if people know/worship him or not. So, I'm still confused how Akatosh, as being THE dragon god, doesn't play any role in Skyrim. Or is Alduin just another name for the exact same entity as Akatosh (like a "translation")? If so, then this should belong in the article. --91.41.140.188 10:46, 17 January 2014 (GMT)
Or ist it in the "nature" of Akatosh to not care for Skyrim, does he have no "power" outside Cyrodiil? And is it in the nature of Alduin to not care for non-Skyrim parts? --91.41.140.188 10:48, 17 January 2014 (GMT)
Technically, Akatosh and Alduin are separate. Both are sub gradients or shards of the father of all time gods (Alduin, Alkosh, Auri-El, Akatosh etc) who is known as Aka-Tusk. In the game, Parthy calls Akatosh "Bormah", which means father and Alduin calls himself the firstborn of Akatosh - they are actually referring to Aka-Tusk, the original time god who all dragons descend from. Akatosh (technically) came about in the First Era - after the Marukhati Selective discarded the Elven aspects of Auri-El and the result was Akatosh - a schizophrenic deity. However, being a time god, Akatosh has always existed. Its confusing. This is lore that is most based on out of game texts from the former dev/writer Michael Kirkbride. The forums might be a better place to discuss this further.--Jimeee (talk) 11:07, 17 January 2014 (GMT)