Lore talk:Appendices

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Trail and table[edit]

Sorry for deleting them, but why are they needed? Phoenix Neko 10:01, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The trail is policy. I assume the table is about style points. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 10:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for answer, but I need more information, please. What policy? Where can I see it? ...And points were the same, I think. Phoenix Neko 14:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
The bread crumb trail policy can be found here. As far as the table business, my guess would be that it helps make sure the information still looks right when it's transcluded in another article. –Eshetalk 14:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
What Eshe said. Have a look at a page that this one is transcluded on, such as Lore:Septim Dynasty. The grey box headed 'Appendices' is the table from this page, which doesn't actually appear on this page because of the judicious use of <includeonly> and <noinclude> tags. --Gaebrial 15:03, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. I understand a bit more now thanks to you. How do you think, maybe this gray box with 'Appendices' should be re-formatted using new structure of Appendices page? Phoenix Neko 19:21, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Building new Appendix[edit]

A few months ago, I suggested we try to build an appendix for all the courtly roles in the games. Here is my first swing at creating a framework. I would appreciate any feedback on it, including whether I should just give up right now. And I was also wondering whether it would be best to keep the positions generic (King, Jarl, Count, etc.), or if I should make an entry for each specific office ("Jarl of Riften", "King of Daggerfall", etc.). The latter would make it much easier to differentiate the offices, but it would also make the page much longer. Anyways, any input is appreciated. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 20:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

You'll have a tough time if you decide to have an entry for each specific office. Daggerfall has hundreds, and I'm sure Arena's are randomised. —Legoless 23:25, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Indeed. And there are many positions that are only mentioned once or twice in passing. I'm putting a disclaimer at the top that some positions are omitted for lack of information. That way I can distinguish all the big players without listing every little king or queen who has cropped up in Tamrielic history. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 23:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion: add new appendices[edit]

Hi all! These days I have been wandering around that with Contraband's descriptions from Online and conversations from Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and Online we can actually create an article in which we can talk about marriage, love, sexuality, gender identity and gender equality (women's role in goverments, army, and in daily life). Something like Lore:Sexuality, Lore:Sex or Lore:Sexuality and Gender would be nice to name the new article.

Considering lore and in-game information, since the 3E and 4E games are older than Online, set during 2E, we can say that things have changed over years: during 2E Tamriel, women fought and command, same-sex couples were quite common... However, it appears that Tiber Septim brought some heteronormality and patriarchy to Tamriel, generally speaking. I am gathering information and there is MUCH. PLENTY OF LORE-RELATED INFORMATION and IN-GAME REFERENCES. I have around 25 bookmarks in my PC without counting Contraband ones.

I thought that today is a especial day too, and I am seeking guidance, support, and advice :) This might be a nice idea, specially for those who visit UESP seeking guidance in tabletop and in-game roleplaying (and for the curious ones too!).

PS: Transportation article is outdated too. We have many new in-game and lore references. I suspect other appendices are outdated too.

PS II: I am tired of writing lore Valenwood articles!! Hahaha (just a joke, in fact I love writing settlement articles), it is simply that we are discussing how to treat minor settlements and I will not write anything new without a new consensus for Valenwood and for the other countries/provinces.

Sorry for my broken English, as always,

and I wait for your ideas, guys and girls!

Esh (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

An article on marriage sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we can or should draw any conclusions on gender from how it's been portrayed in TES over the years. One must instead consider the cultural and developmental context in which these games were made. The likes of Daggerfall and Battlespire are bound to feel a bit like a good old boys club, given the small nature of those projects and the very male-heavy dev teams - you simply need to look at the instances of breasts and outright pornographic material present in those games. Oblivion was the first instance of a homosexual relationship in TES as far as I recall (discounting obscure Vivec lore). ESO is a huge, modern product and clearly has very progressive attitudes (see this Q&A, for instance). This all points strictly towards changing attitudes and a wider audience in the real world, and conflating it with TES lore or historical events (e.g. Tiber Septim) is speculative and not really grounded in our current understanding of Tamriel. —Legoless (talk) 18:48, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
This Q&A is one of my bookmarks. But precisely there, we can find certain dissidence towards sexuality: "Ah, dearest Sybil of our Blessed Lady. It's nice to converse with somebody local for a change, especially one so venerated as yourself. My question for you pertains less to courtship rituals and more towards the perception of the Lady herself in High Rock. Recently, I took a trip to Daggerfall to visit the various alchemy and enchanting shops in that fair city, and stopped by the Chapel of the Divines to listen to a sermon while I was there. I was shocked and dismayed to hear the priest tell his flock to "beware" the "charms of Dibella" or some such. He had spoken so highly of the other seven Divines, and I found it odd that the Lady of Love, Beauty, Art and Music would be vilified in such a fashion. Is she not one of the blessed Eight? Did Akatosh not choose the others to serve at His side? What should I tell people who imply that the Lady is somehow craven or unworthy of our praise? I feel particularly strongly about this, as it was the cult of Dibella which brought me into the faith of the Divines in the first place. I want people to understand how kind and benevolent she is. Will you help me to find the words, O Sybil?" – Legate Cyclenophus of the Bretonic Imperial Restoration Society
Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, “By Her Lips! You've been listening to the sermons of Father Pitof of the Daggerfall Cathedral, haven't you? The pious father is devoted to theology, but as I have reason to know, he is not passionate only about our duty to worship the Eight. But it doesn't do, after one night of worship to Dibella, to get all proprietary about one's ardor-partner. I fear I spoke more sternly than he liked, and may have sent him back to Daggerfall with a grudge against Our Lady and those who serve her. Hopefully, with time, he will find his way back to joy."
Besides of this, if you look at the list of rulers, you can find lore-based gender facts. For example, Emperors... We can find that almost all of them are male. Second Empire: 0 females / 7 males. Third Empire: 5 females / 17 males. Mede Empire: 0 females / 3 known males. Imperial succesion laws CLEARLY are agnatic-cognatic. Not absolute cognatic. The First Empire was the only one to have a similar number of Emperors and Empresses.
I know times have changed (for good) and developers are more open-minded, but in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim (2011 stuff!) women are innkeepers, alchemists, mages and wives; while men are soldiers, rulers and, generally speaking, whatever they wanted.
We have also cultural-related stuff. Clanmothers and Treeminders are always female. The Silvenar is always a male and always get married to a female Green Lady. The Sybil of Dibella is always a female. Orc and Reachmen societies are TOTALLY patriarchal and oppresive towards women.
I can keep talking all day :P We can work on marriage first and later we can see. But I want to hear others' opinions Esh (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Orcs are actually noted for their "generous equality of rank and respect among the sexes" (source). There are also plenty of female rulers in Oblivion and Skyrim, so I don't quite follow that reasoning. Without any kind of official sources on this topic to work with, such discussion veers into the realm of original research, which we try to avoid in lorespace. —Legoless (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, you are right. We cannot create knowledge from observation in this wiki. I am a newbie! I will only describe topics with referenced texts, then. Gender is not one of them. It is too obscure. I have texts for Marriage and Sexuality (proper). We can create both of them. Breton and Redguard mocked Khajiit and Dunmer for its oversexualized societies, we have records of same-sex marriages from each Era, many references to brothels and prostitution (of both sexes) in every province except for Black Marsh, we also have the words said by the priests in Mara-blessed's marriages. Esh (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! —Legoless (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

() Skyrim was very egalitarian in regards military women, except with the Imperial Legion (a script bug prevents random female legionnaires). The biggest attitude change is not that woman can be "good" characters in "strong" or "male" roles, like Legate Rikke (Imperial Legion 2nd in command), Aela (Companions), Adrianne Avenicci (blacksmith), Delphine (Blades), Serana (Dawnguard), 3 of the 9 initial Jarls with the only possibility to increase that number, and 23 of the 59 permanent followers (39%), including Uthgerd who was denied Companion membership for being too violent, it is that they occupy many of the "evil" positions and even have a good proportion of enemies to kill, Astrid (Brotherhood leader), Babette (brotherhood), Elenwen (Thalmor), Tonilia, Vex, Karliah (three Thieves Guild members), and Rigil Strong-Arm (one of the few named bandit leaders). Women in Skyrim occupy nearly every profession; blacksmiths, mages, alchemists, soldiers, thieves, murderers, Companions, innkeepers, housecarls, bards, jewelers/drapers, smugglers, hunters, fishermen, bandits, and vampires. Now we know the numbers are far from 50/50 (the Agent of Dibella reward and Allure perk which affect the opposite gender are more beneficial to a female character), but I would contend that the numbers would more than stack up against the same professions in the real world. We must also remember that despite the removal of "male" and "female" descriptors from jobs, some jobs and job types are still much more appealing to each gender and will never have anywhere near a 50/50 split, such as soldiering and raising children. The cultural gender associated jobs are also based in reality, most tribal cultures associated certain jobs with genders, generally split between the "traditional" male and female roles of protection and housekeeping respectively. Any cultural jobs such as Clanmother, Treeminder, Silvenar, and Green Lady, are no evidence for gender-inequality on a larger scale.

The history of Tamriel started as a reflection of our world, where the vast majority of leaders (military and political) have been men (the number of female monarchs still outnumbers the number of female elected leaders in history), partly because that is how all civilizations have been, and partly because it is easier to copy than invent. However, as the lore expanded with new games there appears to be a deliberate attempt at positive-discrimination in order to create some level of proportionate representation by women in lore. This may not be apparent to the casual observer because the games are still informed by their partial basis on our medieval times (certainly in regards the attitudes of citizens of Nirn). Casual racism is abundant in Tamriel, as well as mocking other cultures and the stereotypes associated with each race. ESO's modernity in attitudes even compared to Skyrim creates a certain disparity as it is set before the other games with their older attitudes. I would prefer to treat the differences as a "limitation" of the individual games, rather than an intended feature, in regards the supposed gender-inequality, as there is no evidence to support an assertion about any intention. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree with your words, Silencer, female NPCs in Skyrim were everywhere. I began this discussion to share ideas. And it worked!! Gender is not a topic we can assure anything. Games previous to ESO were simply not representative. I will only talk about these 2 new articles: Lore:Sexuality and Lore:Marriage. And bases on referenced texts, not on observation. I think that is our conclusion. Esh (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)