Lore talk:Azura

Gender

this article refers to Azura as a prince but it also refers to Azura as a female, not to mention the consistency in images as to being Female, shouldn't it be changed to "Princess"? — Unsigned comment by 69.14.33.214 (talk)

You're right, Azura is female. A few of the others are as well, but if you look at Lore:Daedric Princes, you'll find this: Although Daedric Princes may assume the form of a female, they have no inherent gender, and are all referred to as Princes. In all, there are 16 known Princes, including one which assumes the role of two. Good observation, but it's fine as it stands ;). --Eshe 21:35, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Picture issue: Is it a phylactery or merely a gem? Both are used for storing souls, but Azura's Star isn't used by a lich to contain a soul. Erathoniel 21:08, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Disturbing

more needs to be said of her controling side and her hatered of all mortals who wish to live forever/become gods Diobern 12:55, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Just wondering if anyone has more info on the Where and the How Dagoth Ur obtained the info/knowledge of the heart that Azura later confirmed? 174.23.26.228 05:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC) J

The Correct Chronological Order

Here it refers the Dagoth Ur as Dagoth Ur but at this time he has yet to become such(he is still Voryn Dagoth). What are your[this means anybody] thoughts on this? 174.23.26.228 05:49, 10 October 2009 (UTC)J

I think the corract way of saying what you suggest would be by adding "know as Voryn Dagoth at the time" as people commonly know him as Dagoth Ur. Although, since Azura talks about him to the nerevar, he was know at the time as Dagoth Ur wich would make the reference right even if the reference is about back then. I'm assuming you're talking about these passages "Azura told Nerevar that Dagoth Ur's knowledge of the Heart of Lorkhan was accurate, leading to a war with the Dwemer from which Nerevar's coalition emerged victorious and the Dwemer did not emerge at all." "Later, Azura aided the Nerevarine in defeating Dagoth Ur and toppling the Tribunal Temple. As a reward, Azura gave the Nerevarine another ring." since thats the only place I see Dagoth Ur Pizza_Boy 09:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Pictures

wouldnt a better picture of azura for morrowind be one of her thanking you for killing dagoth ur? (Eddie the head 06:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC))

I agree the one we have at the moment isn't very good, but a shot of her after you kill DU would be almost identical to the Tribunal one - they used the same animation for both. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I've uploaded a better picture. Hopefully that helps. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

yep much better :) (Eddie the head 10:45, 27 February 2011 (UTC))

Gender

I know that the Anticipations say that Azura is percieved and referred to as female, but as the Daedric Princes article states, all Daedra are called "princes" and are referred to as male, regardless of the form they choose to take. Now, I want to check with the community before I go about changing "she" to "he" and "her" to "him". I implemented such a gender fix on the Vaermina article, and there seemed to be no qualms about it. Whatever the community decides here, I plan to go about either changing the gender, or not changing anything on each Daedric Prince's page.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 22:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I just posted my views on the matter on the Daedric Princes talk page. Legoless 22:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Azura is the only one I would have any doubts about, just because she's so consistently referred to as "she" or "her" by characters in the lore and games, but personally I'm fine with either way. I wouldn't be surprised if some user out there sees fit to revert such a gender change, but it won't be me. Minor Edits 22:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I just think that consitency is best.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 22:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I think consistency is too big of a problem with the Daedric Princes to be a feasible goal. See Nocturnal, officially the Daedric "Princess". Legoless 22:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't find it unfeasable. I have plenty of time this summer. But, I promised that I would leave well enough alone if the community voted against me, and it does seem as if it's going to go that way.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 22:57, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

By feasible I meant with the current lore, not with the amount of work involved. It might be best to wait for further input on the matter from other editors before giving up; I'm the only one who has disagreed so far. Legoless 23:05, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I suppose; I typed that while looking at past discussions and seeing that it had usually been decided to leave the genders alone. Anyways, we'll see what other's think.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 23:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Nocturnal and Azura are consistantly refered to as "She" within the games. --Brf 16:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but this is a Lore article, not a Gamespace article.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 00:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but the Lore articles depend on the games for their info. You can't just make something up because it sounds right. Azura and Nocturnal are always referred to as "She", despite also being referred to as "Prince". --Brf 00:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

(←) Not always; I seem to recall several times where they were referred to as "she", though not by her followers. And we're not making something up, Brf. You can't say that they're ALWAYS referred to as "she"; that is a generalization which helps no one. Even books sometimes say "he". Also, the Lore namespace draws heavily from books, not NPCs.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 00:59, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

So produce an game example that refers to Azura as "He". --Brf 01:01, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Alright, just give me a few minutes. Thanks for your opinion by the way! --Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 01:03, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: Hey, I've got to get off. But I'll just say right now that I'd probably be searching all day for just one example; the only real reason I wanted to change it was for consistency. I'll be back on here whenever I get the chance.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 01:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I cannot find anywhere in that Daedric Princes article where it says they should be referred to as "Male" -- only that they can be referred to as "Princes". It also says further down the article, in the Mephala section, Azura is always female. --Brf 01:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

After doing some thinking/researching, here's my final thoughts on the matter: Lore pages are supposed to appear as if they're written by, and for, someone in the TES universe. The customary linguistic rule is that when one thing or group entity has both feminine and masculine aspects, then it is referred to in a masculine way. Therefore, the Daedric Princes who even occasionally appear as males should, and do, use masculine pronouns. TES seems to abide by this rule, and therefore, a contrary policy on UESP would be antithetical to the Lore pages. There are two Daedra, though known as "Princes" and "Lords," who are at the same time referred to in absolutely female terms (both in the lore and, to my knowledge, in the games): Azura and Nocturnal (though between them, Nocturnal is the only one who can legitimately be called a Daedric princess). I think Kalis' search for dialogue or lore describing Azura in a masculine way will come up empty, as would a similar search for Nocturnal. It's clear that linguistically, at least, the TES population knows and refers to them as female entities, even while acknowledging that gender for Daedra is a loose concept.

But don't forget: I don't really care. I would be fine if the articles used he, she or even "it," as long as they're internally consistent. Minor Edits 03:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I've been thinking in this past day and have finally decided that it really isn't a big deal. As long as they are, as Minor Edits said, internally consistent, then the articles are fine. I also agree that trying to find a reference for Azura will turn up empty; my only choice seems to be replaying Daggerfall again, just to be safe, which is something I'd rather not do at the moment since I am trying to finish the main questline on the game as of now. In any event, as long as the Vaermina article clarifies her/him being referred to as both male and female (which I made sure of a week or so ago) then I'm totally satisfied. Thank you all for your input, and I believe that we can consider this chapter in UESP discussion closed, unless anyone has some afterthoughts.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 16:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Aligned with Molag Bal?

I took a look in the link that was used to show she was aligned with Molag Bal. I think the info there was inconclusive in that respect. So,is she REALLY an ally of Molag Bal? — Unsigned comment by 201.9.174.122 (talk) at 05:05 on January 16, 2012

The cite doesn't support the proposition about Molag Bal, that's for sure. Minor Edits 05:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I added the cite in May to support the latter part of the sentence. The Molag Bal information itself was added by Uniblab in 2008. Apparently, the information is from Daggerfall. I've never played Daggerfall, so I can't really confirm. Minor Edits 05:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Enemy of Nocturnal???

The article states that her enemies are Ebonarm and Nocturnal, but no reference is given. It seems clear that not only is Azura not Nocturnal's enemy, but the two are sisters, as would make sense given the overlapping of their realms:

"To understand Nocturnal is to negate her, to pull back the curtains cloaking her realm of darkness. As much as I loved her, I recognized the futility of unraveling her enigmas. I turned instead to her sister, Azura." (Invocation of Azura, Morrowind version, but this information is present in all versions of the text)

The two also have a strong resemblance in character, being wise but strict or severe with their followers. — Unsigned comment by 174.6.51.17 (talk) at 01:27 on March 5, 2012

See here. The information is in regards to alliances in Daggerfall. We include Daggerfall alliances on all the Daedra lore pages, though it's not yet properly cited in all cases. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Enemies and sisters are not mutually exclusive... Also, I believe it's been stated that ALL of the Daedra princes are considered brothers and/or sisters. (Gender is not such a fixed concept with Daedra.) So that could simply mean "sister" in the metaphorical sense. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 04:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't buy it. Nothing sourced has explicitly stated that there is enmity between Azura and Nocturnal. I follwed the relevant links, and it seems like a lot of fanboyism coupled with thinly stretched bits of vague lore. — Unsigned comment by 69.141.182.220 (talk) at 17:58 on 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The Daggerfall source is good. There is nothing to challenge it out there, and until there is something that clearly contradicts this, this is the only source on the topic. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Anon's reply was lost in the failed upgrade test, but I'll restate: the information was taken from Daggerfall's data files, not made up by fanboys. —Legoless 23:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

(←) WOW, what is wrong with uesp.net? I created an account days ago... Only to find every post I made on it has dissapeared (I had one on here), and my account doesn't exist. I have gone ahead and recreated it, same usernam (the one I'mm typing on right now), same password, same email, and uesp.net is treating it like nothing ever happened. What is up with that? Jros83 23:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, I will restate, I read the relevant info from Daggerfall that was provided, and I still saw nothing that implicitly states they are enemies. Jros83 23:01, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Your edits were deleted because of a failed update.It deleted quite a few edits.But it's alright now.--Skyrimplayer 23:02, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah I see, and I will assume that was also why my first account vanished lol. Thank you for filling me in, Now I can relax and be productive :) Jros83 23:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you read the right page? ... under Allies & Enemies the section for Azura clearly has Nocturnal listed as Enemies and the section for Nocturnal clearly has Azura listed as Enemies. I'm not sure how much clearer it could be ... — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:08, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

But Kimi that's made by contributors. That's my point. Jros83 23:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe it is suppose to be created from game data from Daggerfall. If its not i think it should be removed as its miss leading. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as both AKB and Legoless have said, the information was taken from the game data. And yes, they are contributors - who got the information from the game data. • JA^T 00:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

(←) Not just any contributor, but a contributor who most likely actually knows more about Daggerfall than the actual developers. The quality of the edits aren't doubted, especially if there is no evidence to back up claims against them besides a worry that it might be misleading as the article was made by a contributor. Unless you can refute that article's content with proof from the Daggerfall game files that this isn't true, I would trust the content of the article. Almost everything on this site was made by a contributor (excluding files taken directly from game data). If we're going to draw into question editions brought to us by contributors, almost everything in lore will be questionable if the topic ties into any of the games. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 01:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Last section on Azura's star is completely wrong

The Dragonborn is not captured by the broken Azura's Star he finds at the feet of Varen's skeleton. If that had been the case, and he had fought and defeated Varen, how would he have gotten out of the Star again? He does not make the decision on the fate of the Star while still inside it. He makes that decision by returning either to Azura's Shrine or to Winterhold.

In the game, if the decision is to restore the Star to its original form, the Dragonborn takes the broken Azura's Star back to Azura's Shrine, and Azura transports him into the Star to battle Varen, transporting him out again after Varen is destroyed and the Star cleansed. If the decision is to take the Star to Nelacar, it is made into a working Black Star (I don't know the details of this since I've never chosen this alternative in game). Robinwitch1 (talk) 22:32, 8 October 2013 (GMT)

The details of both choices are on the quest page. You are correct, the ordering is wrong. Either way the Dragonborn destroys Varen's soul, but does so after choosing to give it to Nelacar or Ienith. How about this change?

The Dragonborn had to decide whether to give the Star to Ienith, who would have Azura restore the artifact, or bring it to Nelacar, who offered to complete Varen's work and permanently corrupt the artifact, leaving it as the Black Star. It is unknown which option the Dragonborn chose, but afterwards, the Dragonborn had to destroy Varen's soul in order to put that decision into effect. --Morrolan (talk) 22:58, 8 October 2013 (GMT)

It's definitely better than the current wording. --Xyzzy ^Talk 01:56, 9 October 2013 (GMT)

Azura Hotel Complex

It seems that some sort of tourism building complex named after Azura was opened in Turkey, and she features in statues. [1] Vinyadan — Unsigned comment by 82.52.36.31 (talk) at 00:14 on 26 May 2015

Well isn't that just one of the biggest coincidences I've ever seen, I have no doubt that that is all it is. Azura is derived from azure, meaning blue, and if you look at the hotel and it's website (and just like the song) everything is blue themed. There's a picture from the back that makes the whole thing look almost totally blue too. The crescent moon and star are part of the Turkish flag. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Azura is also a legitimate Hebrew female name dating back thousands of years, one place it can be found is in the apocryphal Book of Jubilees, and as Silencer pointed out it can also be a reference to azure. So yeah the hotel is a complete coincidence. Besides why would a hotel complex be named after a video game character?--StormySkies (talk) 04:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

In addition to all of this, where would we place this on the site? It doesn't fit in with the information we provide here which is strictly game-related, not about their effect on culture. Also, why would we put this on the site? Talking about it here is essentially advertising for it, which we simply do not do. •WoahBro^►talk 04:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Still might be worth contacting them, if anyone here speaks Turkish.. —Legoless (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Given the status of English as a major economic language, many people in other countries, including Turkey, speak English. You could probably email them in English and they would be able to read it and reply (or someone there would) Jeancey (talk) 16:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

While Jeancey is correct that the hotel staff likely speak English, I suspect the architect/designer or owner are the only people who can answer any questions regarding its origins.--Jimeee (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

We pretty much no for a a fact that the hotel complex has no connection with the Elder Scrolls character, it seems completely unneccesary to waste there time asking. The asker is only going to look ridiculous.--StormySkies (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(←) It actually is totally connecteed to ES character. It was a project by mayor Melih Gökçek, known for his escapades and wasting budget onto stuff like robot statues. The name of the hotel and the statues were made directly by his request, and their form is based on Azura statue as it appears in TES:Skyrim : outside/comparison: [2] inside: [3] . The mayor has been replaced after several scandals, but the hotel and statues in it remained. — Unsigned comment by 178.45.83.109 (talk) at 12:55 on 28 January 2018

While I am willing to revise my opinion above, there is quite literally nowhere for this to go on the wiki besides here on the talk page. Let these images be the last of the matter. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 13:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Someone could add a "Notes" section in this Azura's page, or the one from Skyrim (since the statues are actually as seen in Skyrim). This is a Wiki, so an encyclopedia about The Elder Scrolls and this seems to me like a fact about TES, which should be somewhere. -- Giant Lizard (talk) 10:37, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

The place for this would be in the General namespace, not the Lore namespace. Perhaps a new section on General:Real-World References: not stuff in TES games that references the real world; but stuff in the real world that references TES games. Or General:References to The Elder Scrolls in Other Media, stretching a bit the definition of "media"... --Gez (talk) 11:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)