Lore talk:Dawn Era

Paraphrasing

I may paraphrase the monomyth for this article, replacing the inadequate anuad — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 22:52 on 26 July 2008‎

The Anuad should also not be regarded as a historical source, so part 2 of the NOTE should be erased. It is needless complication and not a simply another theory or conflict.Temple-Zero 21:11, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Dawn Era End?

You put on the article that convention is the end of the Dawn era, yet you continue with the founding of mortals... Should this not be NEXT era --Juz 64.35.208.9 04:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Probably. But the process occurs before recorded history and straddles periods of linear and non-linear time, so the distinction would be inelegant either way you look at it.132.162.76.105 03:13, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

What about the Falmer?

You failed to mention the other type of mer, the Falmer, or Snow Elves, unless I am mistaken in that they were a branch off of another type of elf later in time. 68.110.204.145 00:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

They dissipated because they bred with other Elves. I can check to see if the scholar in Solthshiem says when they were around.--^Corevette₇₈₉ 00:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

There are no real sources saying when the Falmer were around. See Lore:Falmer--^Corevette₇₈₉ 00:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Greymarch?

Well, I added a sentence about Jyggalag being cursed to become Sheogorath, but now I'm having second thoughts. The focus of this page is supposed to be on the creation of Mundus / Tamriel after all, correct? If so, I don't think this belongs, even if it is a notable historical event. (For those who really care, I calculated the Greymarch to have begun somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years before the beginning of the Merethic Era, based on some of SI's books...) BFG 02:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

What's your source, please? rpeh •T•C•E• 09:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The primary source I used was The Predecessors. In that book, the author states "[t]he ruins [of Shivering Isles] fell into distinct periods, each period separated by exactly 1,000 years from the other (although Cylarne remains the exception, being many thousands of years older than the next oldest extant ruin...)". And the Shivering Isles itself contains thirteen ruins (although three of them are pretty small). So, assuming The Predecessors is correct, ignoring the three small ruins, and assuming that Cylarne is at least 2,000 years older than the next oldest ruin, that gives us at least 11 millenia, and probably much longer, since Jyggalag was cursed. The first three Eras combined lasted about 4,250 years, so Jyggalag's curse occurred well before the beginning of the First Era. BFG 15:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd already spotted the 1000 years thing but the rest looks like huge speculation to me. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...well, I do have to agree, a fair amount of this is conjecture. Even if we can assume The Predecessors is accurate, it's a guess as to how many ruin should be counted in the calculation. That said, if we can trust The Predecessors, only four of the ruins would need to have been former New Sheoths/capitols for the Curse to have taken place before the First Era. That's because Cylarne is at least 2,000 years older than the next oldest ruin, so four ruins (including Cylarne) would span more than 4,250 years. That said, I'll defer to your (and the community's!) judgement on this. BFG 04:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty lies in reconciling the Predecessor's calculation that the isles are > 11-13,000 years old with Jyg's statement that "Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness", which implies there was a great deal of time before he was cursed. Granted, time in the Dawn Era was something of a nebulous concept, but it's still not straightforward. I'm just about in favour of having the statement about the curse on the page, but it should probably be moved away from the section about the other Princes because at the moment it implies the curse happened almost immediately. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I had forgotten that statement. It is clear then that Jyggalag was allowed to rule for some time prior to the curse. I suspect that even so, the curse still had to have happened in the Dawn/Merethic era; the most conservative (i.e. latest) estimate I can come up with, based on The Predecessors, is 9,000 years--nearly 5 millennia before the conclusion of the Dawn Era. That's assuming only Cylarne and the seven other ruins as large as it were capitols at one point.

I agree with you that the current statement makes it look like the curse happened immediately. I'll modify it. — Unsigned comment by BFG (talk • contribs) at 18:35 on 15 February 2011

Revamp Notes

First, I excluded OOG from the page for a variety of reasons, the most dispositive of which was that it was easier, which appealed to my natural laziness. But still, there's a ton of OOG relevant to the page, and incorporating it would make the page very long. It also seems likely, imo, that a substantial quantity of this OOG is out-of-game for a reason (i.e., Bethesda may have actively avoided "canonizing" it), so it's prudent for us to omit that stuff here and avoid any and all potential OOG fallacies. But, of course, we don't want to do a disservice to particularly avid readers out there, so I felt an "External Links" section at the bottom was a good compromise. I think I got all the particularly relevant TIL articles, but it's possible there are other suitable links.

Second, you may notice some entries or statements which appear to be repetitive. This seemed necessary to me in order to be comprehensive while also avoiding potentially fallacious assumptions.

Third, I renewed links in every section, which I believe is the standard practice on timelines. But in this case, it may have unnecessarily "overlinked" the page, I don't know.

Fourth, some creation myths may be underrepresented at this time, notably that of the Redguards. And, of course, we know very little about Argonians (though the novels might have some info I overlooked). There may be details from Shezarr's Song or other sources which I didn't feel the need to include. I used mostly elven monikers for the sake of brevity.

Fifth, there's obviously a lot of detail already, especially for a timeline article. But I think this era necessitates different treatment given how convoluted it is. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:35, 24 November 2013 (GMT)

Also, I just noticed this, TIL's own breakdown of the creation myths, embellished with various OOG. It's not a developer creation, but it might be worth adding to the External Links section. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:40, 29 November 2013 (GMT)