Lore talk:Ehlnofex Languages

The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995
Jump to: navigation, search
Archives

{{Template:FULLPAGENAME0/Line|1=Archive 1|2=|3=May 2007 - May 2012 }}

Tamrielic[edit]

Does anyone know whether the Altmeris or the Cyrodilic is the language of Tamriel? I know I've seen conflicting sources, but can't seem to find even one currently. -- kertaw48 12:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

alphabetical implications[edit]

the falmer, dwemer, and ayleid alphabets are all similar enough to imply that the languages are derived from the same source . . . I am not intimately familiar with the timeline, but would that mean that the falmer and dwemers languages evolved from teh ayleid language?!?! 71.238.243.98 22:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Dwemeris derives from Aldmeris which derives from Ehlnofex. Falmer derives from Altmeris which derives from Aldmeris which derives from Ehlnofex. Ayleidoon derives from Altmeris (like Falmer) which derives from Aldmeris which derives from Ehlnofex. So they all derive from Aldmeris, but Falmer and Ayleidoon also derive from Altmeris as an extra step. None are derivatives of another. Vely►Talk►Email 22:22, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I disagree, the chart is speculative so dont try adn play up what you are saying as fact. It seems very clear that the three languages at the time of the three races cultural demise was largely identical . . . 71.238.243.98 22:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Dwemeris, and ayleid . . . are just too similar, they had to have gotten off the same stepping stone . . . same with falmer. 71.238.243.98 22:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I am not certain as to what is true; your first comment came off as not understanding the page, rather than disagreeing with the page. I am not familiar with lore, so I'll leave someone else to explain it to you, if they know it. As the chart is, however, Ayleidoon and Falmer are based off of the same language, while Dwemeris branched off of Aldmeris. I doubt there is a large difference between Aldmeris and Altmeris, either, so they all look closely related. Vely►Talk►Email 22:55, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
But Dwemeris, and Ayleidoon are virtually identical in their written form! 71.238.243.98 23:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

() First of all, this is an article about languages, not alphabets. There's a difference. Secondly, while we might attribute much to this, I believe it to be merely a developer oversight.

The Dwemer alphabet was created during TES III (not counting this) and served no practical purpose: all of the book texts were not legible and the inscriptions at the ruins were real-life references (hardly canon). Also, in TES III it is established that not only is Aldmeris different from Dwemeris, but also that Aldmeris was used to translate Dwemer books, meaning they are certainly not the same script. Add the fact that Dwemer and Ayleids had geographically no area of contact, (the closest being Dwemeri north Hammerfell, which was not in direct contact with Cyrodiil, and Skyrim, where Dwemer simply dwelt underground) and we get that there was no way of one influencing the other.

Speaking of developer oversight, since the Wild Elves were staunch Daedra worshippers they should, much like the Dunmer, use the Daedric alphabet, yet this is not the case. Also there is no way that Ayleid's alphabet inspired the Dwemer one, since the Dwemer made their exodus so long ago, that it can't even be traced in any records, unlike the Ayleids whose empire's founding is well documented.

TL;DR: Dwemeris is different from Aldmeris. Ayleid language comes from the Elven langauge, meaning Aldmeris. Dwemer and Ayleid had no common areas of influence. The similarities of their languages are a product of Bethesda's laziness.

However, it is quite possible that the Falmer alphabet was inspired by the Dwemer one, since they cohabited for a long time. -- kertaw48 23:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

why does everyone fight to protect their fanon in the face of evidence against it? okay at the very least can we get daedric listed as an influence for the dunmer in the same way draconic influenced the nords? The prevalence of the daedric alphabet, and general . . . daedric stuff (deadric forging, daedra worship, magic, the relationship with some daedra) I mean . . . that seems pretty reasonable right? 71.238.243.98 01:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
What fanon? I amply sourced all my arguements. What evidence against it? I haven't seen any of it. And well, disregarding that no such language as "Daedric" has ever been mentioned (because we're still talking about languages here), the Chimer did received a lot of inspiration for their culture from the Daedra, but not Daedra in general, but rather directly from the three Good Daedra. There is no reference whatsoever that the regular Daedra participated in this in any way and it would be pretentious of us to just assume that the servants followed their master's suit. Also, and this cannot be stressed enough, the chart is still speculative and as such doesn't have to be 100%, it's just there to give a general idea of how the languages came to be. -- kertaw48 01:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
but . . . written, and spoken languages seem to go hand in hand . . . Ralok 01:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Seem to go? Then why aren't the Falmer and Dwemer languages, which use very similar script, alike in the meaning of the words and pronunciations? Different influences for different matters. In any case, this is obviously a tremendous error on Bethesda's part, since there is no way that Ayleid and Dwemer alphabets could be so alike without the two cultures having pronounced ties with each other, something no sources imply. -- kertaw48 01:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

WEll according to all sources they both share ancestry with the aldmer, they were also the rulers of cyrodil which is a stones throw away from all the territories of the dwemer . . . in fact dwemer territories seem to keep out of ayleid territories intentionally! I would say this is all just evidence for the aldmeri language, if the altmer and bosmer use a script similiar to the runes then it would be confirmation, the only elf that we have confirmation that DOESNT use an alphabet that is somewhat like the dwemer is the dunmer, I think daedra should definitly be listed as an influence for dunmer (like dragons are with nords) because daedra definitly had an effect on how dunmer communicate. Ralok 02:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It has been altered . . . awesome looking! Although it isnt the full change I hoped for, I find this more than good enough! Ralok 15:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
NEW DETAILS, in the book Before the Ages of Man it states that the Ayleid preserved the "Dawn Era" magics and language of the Ehlnofey . . . . I dont know how that factors into this but I thought it was worth noting! Ralok 22:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Dwemeris on the Chart?[edit]

We have evidence now of actual Dwemer words, more than just the few that have been shared before, now that Skyrim is out and that Calcelmo's stone has been deciphered. Should we add all of the words in that passage that match up to words in other languages? For instance, the chart has "Volen" marked under Dwemeris, but not Mora, which is on the stone. I'm sure I could probably look through the transliterated passage and find more Ehlnofex roots, and I could add them to the chart, if no one objects. Thomas Christian 01:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. The two texts are obviously not literal translations (Falmeri part has 109 wors, while Dwemeri part has 93 words), so I doubt we have a solid way of translating the actual words. And without their meaning it would be kinda pointless adding them here.
About words Dwemeris has in common with other Ehlnofex language: other than mer and Mora (which I don't even know why it is capitalized here) I can't say I see any other words in common. Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on your proposal? -- kertaw48 08:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Some Update[edit]

The word "Nirn" now means "Grey-maybe" rather than "Arena" in the past. "Fell" actually means "City State/Field" in Dwemeris and "Zel" is actually "City" --110.174.164.26 11:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting, what source can you cite for this? If it's dialogue, please provide exact or close so we can look it up. Vely►t►e 13:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

As this page is pure speculation[edit]

...it really has no business in Lore. Discussion in the forums or a talk page yes, but not listed as a resource in and of itself with out significant substantiation. There is no recorded language or even reference of a recorded language Ehlonfey (although perhaps we could hear the Earth Bones better without the skin...) and not even a record of the Ehlonfey be a "people" or "civilization" as we would recognize the term. To cite Ehlonfey as a root language makes as much sense as including Physics, Dirt and Sun on the flow chart.

The flow chart would also imply that Dragons and Dragonic language are outside of creation, as they are not derived from either Ehlonfey or Hist and is serves only to completley invalidate the chart, system and all subsequent derivation. Dragonic came from Akatosh, not out of some void (further consider also that even the Void has a name in TES universe and the Dread Father should not be disregarded so lightly)Drogaonic is a still actively used, documented and verifiable language of confirmed origin. It is a language of Divines, Gods, their followers and of course the Dragonborn.

Additionally the Maormer of Pyandonea were not of the Aldmer of Summerst Isle are known to have had "enmity going back so far as to make that theory impossible." The only mention I have seen of their communication has been in the Wolf Queen book IV in which we know simply that they have no difficulty communicating with Potema, albeit the Cyrodillic was halting, and that the translator spoke the languages of four continents.

I also must question the citation of the Hist as a root of language as the Argonians will tell you, the Argonians are of the Hist and ia about the same as listing Grandma, Next Door Neighboor and Religion as language roots.

This wild supposition of linguistic decent does not take into account language drift or cross-cultural dialogue such as takes place between the Dunmer of Morrowind and Daedra, where Oblivionic script is commonly used and seen on banners. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.201.235 (talk) at 06:31 on 17 August 2012

Too much god-talk. The note below the chart states quite clearly the status of veracity of the chart. Without the chart this page would be all text, something that's usually frowned upon. -- kertaw48 10:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
It has no veracity. It isn't lore. Might as well make a real world chart that shows the creation of the French language from the level of topsoil in Gaul. We know Dragonic is divine in origin and if our Lord Sheogorath does not make new words than his adherents will. — Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 23:01 on 17 August 2012
The "god talk" is absolutely necessary. The deities, Aedra and Daedra (and Dragons can even be put into this catagory) have had direct and repeated documented contact with all known peoples on Nirn considered to have spoken language. If the premise of the page is reliant on the chart which is inherently flawed, the page itself is void of valid content. Further, I reiterate, supposition is not Lore. This is not a source of anything but speculation and misinformation. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.205.41 (talk) at 06:15 on 3 March 2013‎
K. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 13:40, 3 March 2013 (GMT)

Delete or remake this page.[edit]

Ehlnofex is obviously the elven language term for the language of "Old Ehlnofey." Thus the last speakers and writers of the language would be the Ayleid people, ending popularly by the end of the Mertheric era. (see Before the Ages of Man)

Therefore, one need only note how other Mer languages differ from the base mislabeled "Ayleid language" to create the whole of the chart, and a foot note could be made on the Ayleid page.

I would suggest in the future when creating such a fantastical "reference" that you consider that a language you don't speak might have a name for itself in its own tongue. — Unsigned comment by 66.8.149.186 (talk) at 22:51 on 5 October 2012‎

The page already states that it is speculative:
" The chart below is merely speculative, as there is not enough information to confirm or refute this information, and there are differing opinions as to how these languages developed (if some even existed), but it likely breaks down in the following manner"
In addition, you may want to read the above discussions which touch on the topic, rather than start a new one for the same topic. — ABCface 23:57, 5 October 2012 (GMT)
It is in no way Lore then, and since it only deals with an elven root language then the whole thing is not only gibberish, but far too reliant of elves being the only people with a viable history. The chart is simply wrong, not "speculative" and thus has no place in information. — Unsigned comment by 66.8.149.186 (talk) at 00:28 on 6 October 2012‎
While I have no idea where this project got started. It is still wrong. Worse than unreliable it has the allegedly elf free Akaviri speaking a form of old elvish. No one gets a gold star for this. It's time that it went. — Unsigned comment by 66.8.149.186 (talk) at 11:14 on 14 October 2012
The purpose of this page was not to imply any kind of definitive evolution of languages, but to document cases of words used in more than one language in order to find some common roots. The chart at the top is admittedly speculative. To be fair, it even says "Speculative" in very large letters just above the chart, as well as again in the disclaimer below that, so nobody is claiming this chart to be authoritative by any means - quite the opposite in fact. Is it speculative? Yes, but only slightly more so than charts showing the origins of REAL languages in actual history. Given that every one of these "languages" we've seen in the games date back no earlier than 1994 A.D. (Ancient history!) at the absolute oldest (and probably not nearly that far back for most), all of this moaning about whether or not the information is accurate is pretty silly in the long run. Repeat to yourself: "It's all fictional". Nobody really knows anything except for a few writers at Bethesda, and they're not talking. (And even when they do talk, they often contradict themselves, so even that isn't reliable.) We can only piece together clues based on what they've given us, with the understanding that they're well within their rights as the creators of this universe to change anything at any time, whether or not it makes sense to the rest of us. TheRealLurlock (talk) 22:22, 14 October 2012 (GMT)
No reason to think that any common words exist outside of trade and the spread of the Empire. Thus the any chart would be better made to show the spread of Cyrodilic from the human slave languages. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.201.62 (talk) at 11:07 on 19 October 2012

() Aka for example

Is not elvish. Mer don't worship Akatosh, but rather Auri-El. Hence Aka if in common usage for dragon must have a root in another language. Thus the very first thing we see on this chart we can easily see is derived from false reasoning.

End this before people start repeating this nonsense. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.140.206 (talk) at 08:45 on 29 November 2012‎

The Infernal City and Before the Ages of man both contradict this chart. It also makes no note of cultural drift or linguistic shifts. Yet tries to tell us that all the languages have a single root, while trying to avoid the simple fact that the gods talk to people every day. It has long since outlived it's meager premise and has become a directionless monster of your own making. It's time to let it go. — Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 20:03 on 1 December 2012‎
No. If something is wrong, there's no need to complain, you have editing privileges, so fix it. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 20:42, 1 December 2012 (GMT)
If I did, they would undo them. If I don't attempt to prove my case then we just go in editing circles. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.140.206 (talk) at 18:46 on 3 December 2012‎
Remember that consensus is key in this sort of discussion. The discussion itself is going in circles already. — ABCface 19:00, 3 December 2012 (GMT)
Well, you're suggesting the deletion of an article that is both useful and that took hard work to create. How about you start recommending changes instead of radical deletion and (trust me) people will take you seriously. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Words by Languages 2[edit]

The sortable table doesn't seem to be working (again). I tried it again with an earlier version of the page, tried it in another browser, but it's still not working. Does anyone know what could be causing this? -- Kertaw48 (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Do you have a custom monobook.js page? TRL reported similar issues with the sortable tables recently here, I didn't have issues with them at that time and the one on this page works fine for me as well. — ABCface 21:34, 3 December 2012 (GMT)
Not even sure what that is, let alone how to check if I have it. But if the page is working fine for others, that's fine by me. I'll deal with my problems on my own time. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2012 (GMT)
You do not - it would be at User:Kertaw48/monobook.js. You should be able to make one if you want, and you can copy mine if you like, though all it does now is import the one from Jak Atackka. It basically just makes the games on the sidebar collapsible. I was using an outdated old version of it before, which is what caused my problem, but importing Jak's fixed it, so that might work for you too. The other thing that could cause problems is if you're blocking Javascript in your browser somehow. Odds are this isn't the only page that'll be affected by it. TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:21, 4 December 2012 (GMT)
Okay, Huntershound mentioned this same table to me in IRC, so I had to check it out again. Apparently, I didn't look too closely when I checked it before... Kertaw is right. Regardless of which version of the page I check, the sorting in the table does not work properly. It definitely rearranges the rows (which is why a (too-)quick check before made me think it worked), but it doesn't sort properly according to the column you select. I messed with it using show-preview on this page for quite a while before putting a smaller version of the table in a sandbox to mess around some more. But no matter what I did, I couldn't figure it out. After speaking with RH a bit about it, we're guessing that we lost the ability to sort tables with merged columns/rows during the wiki upgrade a few months back. This will take some time to look into, so as a temporary solution, I've removed the merged column from the table, added hover options for the sortable columns (those might need to be checked), and added a thicker border line to separate those columns from the others a bit. Sorry for not looking closely enough at this the first time I checked it- I saw that clicking the arrows did something and didn't even realize the sorting wasn't functioning the way it was actually supposed to. — ABCface 05:42, 23 January 2013 (GMT)

DALK[edit]

This isn't Ehlnofex. I have no idea where the idea of that came from. Is there a source? — Unsigned comment by Mojonation1487 (talkcontribs) at 21:14 on 6 November 2013

It's from The Infernal City. The ref template got screwed up somewhere along the line. Edit- I'm not sure what's happening here. Dalk has a TIC reference tag, and that reference seems to properly filled out, but it's displaying and linking to a PGE reference. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:54, 7 November 2013 (GMT)
The Infernal City says it's Nordic, not Ehlnofex "“Who are you?” and he would answer simply, “Dalk,” which in the northern tongue is an old word for knife.
Keyes, Greg (2009-10-30). The Infernal City: An Elder Scrolls Novel (p. 22). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. — Unsigned comment by 98.206.111.162 (talk) at 22:12 on 7 November 2013
I haven't actually read TIC. I only knew it was from TIC because of Kertaw's edit summary. Can anyone else corroborate? And thank you, Silencer; the referencing issue seems to be resolved. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:35, 9 November 2013 (GMT)
Yeah, I can confirm. 'Dalk' was a character from some children's tale with a knife for a hand, I think. —Legoless (talk)
I can confirm that's the exact line (start of chapter 2 as not all copies have the same size text and therfore page numbers). It is followed by "According to the legend, it happened in Skyrim," which isn't confirmation of it being Nordic but hints at it. Legend is a boy was born with a knife instead of a hand and performed his own cesarean section. People he killed asked him "Who are..." Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:45, 9 November 2013 (GMT)
Unless this page is supposed to be a sort of catch-all, then I guess it should be removed. But the only ancient Nordic language I'm aware of is the Dragon Language. We don't have a page for any Nedic/Nordic tongue. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:59, 9 November 2013 (GMT)
Yeah, this page is kind of a catch-all for random words. However, this isn't the first time a Nordic language has been referred to before Skyrim's Dragon language. Maybe we should think of integrating pre-Skyrim "Nord" words into Lore:Dragon Language. —Legoless (talk) 01:05, 9 November 2013 (GMT)

Ayleidoon[edit]

Would it be a good idea to have a Ayleidoon entry in the table ? For example, "Par" is a Ayleidoon word. — Unsigned comment by Nakalololo (talkcontribs) at 01:11 on 3 August 2016 (UTC)

We have Lore:Ayleidoon for Ayleidoon words, but I do not see why those words aren't here, feel free to correct me if I missed some reason for this separation. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 01:11, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


Ayleidoon Two[edit]

In Before the Ages of Man is is stated that the Ayleids preserved the "the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey." Shouldn't it come before modern Altmeris or even Aldmeris?--46.95.40.32 01:10, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

B'vek[edit]

This word is used by Tedras Relvi in ESO. Meaning is unclear, but it is a Dunmeris word, based on context. Full sentence: "What is that thing? B'vek, it wants to eat us!" (Referring to Valeyn's Familiar. Timeoin (talk) 11:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

It is used by several Dunmer in ESO, seemingly expressing shock or suprise. It is already included on the page among "Common Words" as "An exclamation of surprise". No actual translation is ever given, though. Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 12:13, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Completely unsubstantiated guess - it's a contraction of "by Vehk". --Enodoc (talk) 12:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
(conflict) Oh. So it is. I must be going blind, as I couldn't see it when I looked. Oops.Timeoin (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Kothringi[edit]

During the quest in Zuuk, "Betrux" is revealed to mean "Open" in this language. Timeoin (talk) 09:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Falmer[edit]

The Falmer language, based on the one sample available, doesn't appear to descend directly from Altmeris, but has a lot in common with Ayleidoon. I'd edit it myself but I'm struggling to figure out how Altmeris connects to Falmeris on the chart. Vicano (talk) 19:39, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Ayleidoon and the Altmer and Falmer languages all descended from Aldmeris, so they're pretty similar to each other. The most reasonable connection would be Aldmeris -> Falmer language directly. I see no evidence to the Dwemeris influence either, and Dwemeris is most likely not descended from Aldmeris as it's completely different. In general, a few connections on this diagram don't really make sense. Maybe I'll try to rework it someday. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 08:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Lore:Linguistics[edit]

I was thinking that merging this with Lore:Linguistics would be a good idea. These pages basically serve the same goal, just done differently. Meanwhile Lore:Linguistics also has additional things such as scripts. It just seems odd to have these split between two pages when both combined would look and feel better, imo at least. CoolBlast3 (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I second this movement. Mindtrait0r (talk) 14:00, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
I also agree with the idea. Tyrvarion (talk) 14:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
This proposal is a decent solution for now, but this is a horrible article that shouldn't exist in the long run. 95% of it is Original Research and what little of it is true is already covered in the individual language articles. This article should go back to being for Ehlnofex specifically. Achernar1 (talk) 17:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
The section is literally says "speculative," it's a wonder that it's been permitted to remain all these years. I second Achernar's motion that the page be renamed to Lore:Ehlnofex and its contents be edited. If the chart's deletion is undesired, the chart may be split to User:TheRealLurlock/Ehlnofex Languages instead. -Dcsg (talk) 20:00, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
I agree that the chart is original research and should be removed. Renaming this page to Ehlnofex and having it resemble the same format as the other language pages is a good step, but I think the massive table of shared words is also deserving of removal. That, or being moved to the Linguistics page, as I think it makes more sense there. The idea of the table seems like a lot of work, especially with the use of question marks, so I err on the side of removing or reworking it. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:24, 14 April 2023 (UTC)