Lore talk:Imperial City

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How Old[edit]

According to the Biography of Barenziah, the Imperial City was "newly constructed" at the time she was 18? Does that mean we have a rough idea of how the IC is? See Biography of Barenziah 2&3 for source... — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 17:11 on 19 December 2008‎

It wasn't a new city. Tiber Septim started so huge rebuilding projects to restore abandoned districts, probably left over from the Interregnum. The IC has been inhabited continuously since Ayleid times. Maybe the Imperials like to feel that the city was reborn with Tiber's rule, or maybe the books are just showing their age. Edit: Scratch that last one- the biography of bareniziah is quite recent. Probably an error.Temple-Zero 12:54, 19 December 2008 (EST)
Barenziah was born in 2E 893, and when she was 18 it would have been 3E 14. By then, it would have been 13 years since Tiber Septim pronounced the beginning of the third era after the unification of the provinces of Tamriel. White Gold Tower was built in the middle Merethic era, putting it approximately 6000 years old, since no real dates are given. The Imperial City was built around the tower, which was originally constructed by ancient Ayleids. The city would have to been built sometime after 3E 1 but before 3E 16, when Barenziah was 18. Also, the biography said "until she was 18," which means she could have been anywhere from 4-17 years old when she first went to live there. Given that rather ambiguous information, the city proper can be placed at around 418 to 433 years old, pending inclusion of the fourth era, having only 1 year. I may be wrong, but from the information I found in the biography and the timeline, this is the best age I could estimate. And also, I think what was meant was the age of the current IC, which regardless is still rather old.--penguin0719TalkContribs13:04, 19 December 2008 (EST)
It was already the capital and principal city of Cyrodiil when Cuhlecain came to power. Reman started the custom of lighting the dragonfires at the Temple of the One- it was his capital in the 1st Era. It follows therefore that it was a population center since the Cyrodiils conquered it. Whether it was an Ayleid city or simply a fortress, I don't know.Temple-Zero 13:16, 19 December 2008 (EST)
It was more than likely an inconsistency on Bethesda's part. Kinda like how they had to just introduced Solstheim in Bloodmoon and say it was always there despite inaccuracies on the Arena map. I still think Barenziah meant the current incarnation of the IC, which probably was rebuilt quite differently after Tiber Septim came to power. Maybe Barenziah's statement was meant to be taken as "newly rebuilt" Imperial City, but we can't know for sure.--penguin0719TalkContribs13:27, 19 December 2008 (EST)
I'm delighted to see to wall of answers! But shouldn't the fact that the IC has been built by Ayleids (Ayleidi?) be in the article? IMO that's lore... — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 16:18 on 22 December 2008

() How accurate can The Real Berenziah be considered? I know it was possibly the book that Berenziah was trying to suppress in Daggerfall but it may just be a work of insinuation based on half-known truths (kind of like all the books that will probably come out about Michael Jackson... ah, even in Tamriel we cannot escape all that). In short- The Real Berenziah may not be a reliable work.--Wangpangu 03:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Pretty accurate. Since Plitinius Mero was rather close with Queen Barenziah and the court, I doubt any erroneous information would be provided about it. We consider it 100% true unless a part blatantly is wrong and can be disproved elsewhere. --Elliot(T-C) 05:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

13 Islands?[edit]

Inside the Father of the Niben and the Pocket Guide to the Empire, there is the suggestion of 13 islands that altogether made a city, not 9 walled districts. Explanations? — Unsigned comment by Foacir (talkcontribs) at 18:51 on 5 February 2013‎

Umbriel Crisis[edit]

How about making a mention about the umbriel Crisis and the IC part in it?? --The Hlaalu (talk) 06:39, 20 January 2014 (GMT)

The city didn't play a huge role in the crisis, it was the WGT they were after. That being said there is some work needed, such as the details of the battle of the Red Ring including the withdrawal and subsequent recapture of the city. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:07, 20 January 2014 (GMT)
Considering that the waterfront was taken by the undead wormies and that the final battle went right up to the walls of the city, I think it deserves a mention here as much as anywhere. —Legoless (talk) 01:56, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

Note on the Oghma Infinium?[edit]

Pilaf the Defiler pointed out something on the forums I've never noticed before. Again. He kind of makes a habit of it.

Anyways, see here and here. Notice, even the inner circles roughly match up.

Noteworthy? Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 00:54, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

I don't think it is. That's actually a fairly common shape in elemental symbology, as it is the rough approximation of a water molecule. I don't think that this common shape is similar enough. If the other elements of the design were built into the city, or something like that, than maybe, but I think this is just a coincidence. It is an aesthetically pleasing shape (The female and male shapes combined also produce this angle). I just don't think it is noteworthy. Jeancey (talk) 01:31, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I always thought it was a stylised replication of the same page as seen in Oblivion (see this and this for comparison). It's an interesting resemblance, but we don't see the characteristic spokes or anything. —Legoless (talk) 01:53, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I saw this comparison a while back, and its just coincidence. It goes into the territory of OOG theories, such as the book being a blueprint for White-Gold etc. It might be intentional by the devs, but we don't know. --Jimeee (talk) 10:25, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

Imperial City inspired by Rome[edit]

In response to a recent edit: while the Imperial race and Imperial Legion were inspired by Romans and their legions, the Imperial City predates Imperials, who weren't really introduced until Morrowind. The longstanding notes on those other pages were based on early concept art where the similarities to Romans were especially obvious. So the question is, was the Imperial City inspired by the Romans in the days of Arena? And I don't know if that's as clear-cut. It seems to me like it was a generic fantasy Empire at the time, with a generically-named capital city, and the overtly Roman characteristics didn't come until much later. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 04:17, 11 March 2015 (GMT)

I also don't really see any grounds for saying the Imperial City specifically is inspired by anything Roman. The only similarity is in 'being the capital of an empire', which is pretty tenuous. There's nothing geographical, architectural, or organizational that otherwise points clearly to the city of Rome as an influence as far as I'm aware. The Arena as the Coliseum, maybe, but even then the design is only broadly similar. -- Hargrimm(T) 05:11, 11 March 2015 (GMT)
Not in my opinion either. Imperial City is very set in Elder Scrolls lore in its design and architecture, which doesn't leave much room for any real-world influences in my opinion. The only thing they have going for them is the sewer system, which Romans were renowned for, but I don't think that's viable enough as a whole. --Enodoc (talk) 09:17, 11 March 2015 (GMT)
Were there even Imperials in Arena? I know they weren't playable, but were there Imperial NPCs? Because one of the key linkages is the Roman/Latin base for Imperial's names, along with the Imperial Legion being heavily based on the Roman military structure (ranks, gear art style, etc) but I'm not sure any of that was in Arena. Jeancey (talk) 10:15, 11 March 2015 (GMT)
Eh, I mean the similarities to Rome are obvious (the center of an empire, Imperials inspired by Romans, a colosieum etc.), but no it wasn't originally like that. Imperials didn't exist at all until Redguard retooled the series setting. Also if the art design in Arena is anything to go by it wasn't originally inspired by Rome at all, it was more Medieval fantasy. (i.e White Gold Tower is depicted as a generic Medieval castle.)--StormySkies (talk) 12:45, 11 March 2015 (GMT)
Greetings...the imperial city in Cyrodiil is clearly connection to the city of Rome:
1* is a capital of an empire
2* the imperial dress in suits and uniforms Roman
3* the name of the Imperial are in Latin
4* architecture of the city is Roman.
in the arena incorporates the coliseum;
the Temple district resumes Pantheon of Rome, in particular the coffered dome with oculus at the center. This is also located within the White Tower..
There arcades, colonnades, arches and columns are Roman indentical have imperial forum in Rome.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
Even if the architecture resembles ancient Rome, those sort of statements don't belong on lore articles without sufficient merit. —Legoless (talk) 18:37, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
I did not understand your motivations after this evidence, you can be more specific...--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 18:41, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
Your edit is not in line with our guidelines, and going by the above discussion it's also against consensus. Please don't keep reverting the same edit without coming to an agreement here first, as that's considered edit warring and will result in a warning. —Legoless (talk) 18:54, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) What we're saying is that similarities to Rome are largely cosmetic, and were added after-the-fact. The Imperial City as originally conceived had little if any relation to Rome. So if we were to have a note on the matter, it would not be that the Imperial City was inspired by Rome, it would something like certain elements of the city were inspired by Rome.
I can't say I'm a fan of having such a note, because these things are slippery slopes. I don't think it's wise or necessary for the lore pages to get filled with hundreds of notes which can ultimately only speculate on real-world inspirations of various TES concepts. Who's to say that the Imperial City's architecture was not inspired by the Greeks, for example? These sorts of associations quickly become subjective and incomplete. By saying that just one thing inspired something in TES, it ignores and diminishes the multitude of other influences which likely came into play. It's rare, and thus noteworthy imo, when a TES concept's inspiration can just be attributed to just one thing in the real world. I'd say the Imperial City and elements of it could have been partially inspired by Athens, Prague, uncountable fantasy cities, etc. I feel it would be a disservice to the readers to start making these assertions without clear and convincing evidence to back them up. It's a distraction that often leads to bickering. Thanks for your consideration, though. If you're interested, specific real-world inspirations of TES games can be considered for inclusion on the easter eggs pages (though not broad cultural parallels). Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 19:00, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
Thank you for your consideration ... but sorry I assume a minimum of knowledge in history and especially a minimum of knowledge in the history of art and architecture ... how do you identify with Athens? The introduction and use of the arch of the dome is the Roman ... the examples of an amphitheater like the Coliseum and the colonnades of the Imperial Forums in Rome including the Pantheon in Rome, which has a structure unique in the world ... with a dome hardly confused. I was not only based on architecture and art but also on the concept of "Empire" ..this is important and also the figure is identical to that of the emperor of Rome.The robes of imperial Roman are and how to argue on the basis of a civilization and presents typical of the Roman world against barbaric peoples.The Latin language is the language of imperial ... this seems like more than you can imagine to be able to attribute the comcept in Rome... Of course it is impossible to Athens but mostly impossible and absurd Prague..--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 19:19, 15 March 2015 (GMT)

() They were offered off the cuff as examples of ancient cosmopolitan centers of trade, politics, and learning. Prague is an ancient central capital which experienced a great deal of invasion and turmoil. But the point is, poor examples aside, there are greater site implications at play here, and not inspiring as much as Rome doesn't mean that only Rome served as IC's inspiration. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 19:44, 15 March 2015 (GMT)

The Imperial City is inspired only by the imperial\medieval Rome then there are various elements very specific for this award; it is clear that everything has been reinterpreted so we talk about concept not copy. Compare Prague to Rome and like comparing a grain of sand (Prague) to an entire universe (Rome). Honestly I think the most valuable add this.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 21:17, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
The good people of Prague might disagree. The issue of value is the central question here, ultimately. It's less about what we could say and more about what we should say. We could say the Nords are based on Norse culture, the Bretons are based on Anglo-Saxons and French culture, the city of Vivec on the sea is inspired by Venice, the Velothi were inspired by Judaism, the Redguards are based on Arabian and Japanese culture, that ESO's campaigns to conquer the holy center of the world are strongly reminiscent of the Crusades (which would make the Imperial City Jerusalem, from this perspective), and virtually the entirety of TES was inspired by various facets of LOTR. But I don't see the value, and in fact there's a detriment. Just look at the theology of Elder Scrolls. Deities fit archetypes, archetypes which generally aren't traceable to just one inspiration. The goddess Mara has hundreds of possible inspirations, and we could attempt to list them all. We could have "notes" going on for paragraphs listing all the real-world inspirations for Lorkhan, Magnus, Julianos, etc. The question is, should we? Is that what we're here to do, try to document real-world inspirations and spend the next decade arguing with each other about the veracity of each claim?
I, too, assume a minimum knowledge of history, art, and architecture - among our readers. They shouldn't need this stuff pointed out. Real-world inspirations are just forum fodder, imho. You could continue to harp on Prague, or any of the other examples I've provided above. But then, we would not really discussing the page anymore, would we? We'd just be discussing different ways to interpret real-world concepts. And that's a forum conversation (and not one I'm fond of).
If it seems incongruous to have those notes on the Imperial and Imperial Legion lore pages - although as I said, those are essentially just there to link to concept art - I would rather remove those notes than add this one. This is essentially a Catch-22: the comparisons are so basic that they shouldn't require pointing out, or they're so numerous that trying to treat correlation as causation becomes futile. Regardless, it becomes a distraction for the site. Further, I think it's rather demeaning to the content, and I know there are other TES fans out there who agree. Trying to fit the TES-verse into categories like this makes them seem like they lack depth. It pigeon-holes them. The Imperial City, and the Imperial race, have their own unique history, and having notes which make people think "Imperial=Roman" is both unneeded and I think, in a way, kind of insulting to the creators. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 23:17, 15 March 2015 (GMT)
I can assure you that academics Prague think like me ... just open a history book ... and is visible to everyone. I'd rather give up these examples of strange cities and base myself on something more constructive.
As to the concept art is one of the most important components in a video game ... so it's just his soul in some ways. The concept art is very precise and you can not make so many connections. Your arguments seem a little out of place and also have limits of delirium "kind of insulting to the Creators". It seems absurd. The examples you brought as Vivec or Redguard are totally out of place and without logic. Here we are talking about very specific characteristics of concept art of the game and not only because of possible links to dislike someone. I think it is important to discuss this but in a constructive manner and not mixing of things to do just confusing.
The connection with the real world are very specific especially when it comes to imperial and imperial city.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 01:05, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
The Venetian, Japanese and Arabian influences were just as logical as the Roman ones. As has been pointed out, the concept of the Imperial City was not originally Roman, and to claim so based on the artwork we see in Oblivion is not accurate nor notable. —Legoless (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Again, just kind of proving my point. There's nothing constructive about debating these things, and I hope you understand that's all we would end up doing by going down this road. I just want you to know that you've been heard out, not reverted blindly, but there are reasons behind the longstanding reticence to add these sorts of things to UESP pages.
You were reverted because, as has been generally agreed above, "The imperial city is inspired to Rome" is conjecture. The Imperial City later took on the trappings of Rome in various ways, but when it was originally conceived, during development of the first game Arena, it had only a few, broad correlations with Rome. Rome may have and likely did inspire certain elements which were later developed, but we can't assume it inspired the Imperial City itself. So if you want further consideration, I suggest you draft exactly what you would like the page to say, and other editors can weigh in and hopefully achieve a compromise. But personally, I can tell you, I won't want the similarities to Rome to be highlighted without also noting the Imperial Cities connections to Jerusalem, Byzantium, perhaps Teotihuacan and a host of other cities ... so you're looking at a long note to get my support. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 01:48, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
Unfortunately against ignorance there is little to do ... the history is not an opinion .. Latin language is the language of the ancient Romans did not Teotihuacan. To my knowledge, imperial garments as Teotihuacan. I have a hard time making a connection with Byzantium or Jerusalem saw the clear architectural features of imperial Rome. I see that you did not understand anything about the concept art and continues to put sentences just to confusion. Connections with Venice is nonexistent (there are hundreds of ancient cities built around the water like Venice). The connection with the Arabs ... but what Arabs ... there are definite connections with the Arabs with precise dynasties and territories with a specific architecture and with a language very specific with names that are repeated historically linked with the same stories in the video game ... talk about links with the Arabs in a generic way to say that you do not know any way the topic. The influence of the Far East is clear but also that of India but the same holds true earlier ... there are specific periods taken into account and the precise territories ... with architectures that are read clearly without generalizations . The Latin language is not a guess but is the language of Rome ... the pantheon and amphitheaters like the Roman column and the use of the arches and colonnades is Roman architecture ... not to mention the domes and engineering systems bridges and sewers. It takes courage to define the clothes and uniforms of the imperial Teotihuacan. I think it is important to include this content.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
What content? People can't agree with if you don't give the opportunity for them to do so. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 02:33, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
the content "The imperial city is inspired to Rome." I try to be inserted the consent of all --Sweet Antichrist (talk) 02:47, 16 March 2015 (GMT)
I would be opposed to such an overbroad statement, for reasons previously stated. The positions you're taking are based on architecture, dress, and language, am I right? But simply saying "The Imperial City was inspired by Rome." would go way, way beyond just architecture, dress, and language. There are historical parallels with other cities, there are cultural influences from many other sources which formed the Imperial City's distinct identity. There are metaphysical connections to be made with religious beliefs regarding the divine importance of real-world cities which considered themselves the divine center of their holy world. Rome did not inspire all of the Imperial City. You will need to revise your proposal. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 04:33, 16 March 2015 (GMT)

Edit Break[edit]

() Let's take some examples of architecture to show why I personally think the Imperial City is not directly inspired by Rome:

There is little architectural similarity between the Arena and the Colosseum. They're both round and have buttresses, but that's where the similarities end.

180px-Colosseum_in_Rome%2C_Italy_-_April_2007.jpg OB-place-Arena.jpg

There is not really any similarity in the walls, either in construction technique or style.

180px-Celio_-_le_mura_tra_porta_san_Sebastiano_e_porta_Ardeatina_1974.JPG OB-place-Southwest Watch Tower.jpg

There's a bit of similarity in the design of the Pantheon and the Temple of the One, but there are only a certain number of ways you can make a round building with columns. The columns are the most prominent similarity here, but many architectural styles have columns a bit like that.

180px-Panteon_inside_IMG_4126.jpg OB-interior-The Temple of the One.jpg

Enodoc (talk) 12:35, 16 March 2015 (GMT)

There are doubts about the concept based on Rome ... amphitheatres (arena) were invented by the Romans ... all the architecture with the round arch and classical columns belong to ancient Rome Halfway along the DOME.
The dome of the Pantheon in Rome is unique in the world and has been inserted in the temple district.
The whole architecture made of arches and columns is Roman ... there is no other possibility ... is a matter of history of art and architecture. Of course we talk about everything but the concept has been reinterpreted. The only cone of the Roman empire, and of any other culture. The others are a pale imitation of the Roman Empire.
The concept of the Roman empire, and of any other culture. Do not exist and there are other possible comparisons.
The classic architecture is not an opinion ... with columns, capitals, the structures of the temples, pediments and metopes, the arch, the systems of arches and arcades, the structures of the temples, the barrel vault , engineering aqueducts and sewers, amphitheatres monumental columns, walls and bridges of Rome.
But then just look at the imperial Romans are in the role, in culture, in language, in everything even in physical appearance.
The concept of empire, the barbarians.
If I look at the military uniforms Roma is the only possible concept throughout the universe.
The concept and the architecture of the buildings is from Rome, including roads and the paving of the city's Roman. even the squares and the concept of construction of the plaza with fountains is Roman.
Other locations are impossible.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 14:41, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
You can debate Roman architecture's influence as much as you like, but it really isn't furthering the discussion at this point. "The imperial city is inspired to Rome" is not a statement that's noteworthy or relevant to this article. —Legoless (talk) 15:17, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
" Connections with Venice is nonexistent". Well, quoting the official website from 2000/2001 : "Like Venice, Vivec is an ancient city of canals, arching bridges, and weathered classic architecture.". Source. So for Vivec inspired by Venice, we have a source. ;) --Lady freyja (talk) 16:42, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
Thanks! I think that quote would be noteworthy on the Vivec city page, as it requires no inferences and is something readers might find interesting. The ultimate point of my ranting above is we should not let our own presumptions get between the readers and the facts. Overstating what is known is the concern for this page, but it's equally important not to ignore relevant information. If there were some similar remark from developers describing the Imperial City's architecture as Roman-esque, I could also support referencing that here.
I believe the goal is for readers to think "The UESP said it, so it must be true", not "The UESP said it, so it is most likely true". Based on the information currently available, at least. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 19:45, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
Even with the official quote as a source, I still don't understand why we need real-world connections on TES universe pages? "Trying to fit the TES-verse into categories like this makes them seem like they lack depth", I cannot agree more. Say "Venice" and everything associated with it immediately comes to mind and very likely blocks out anything else. Say "Vivec city" and there is still room for imagination and motivation to seek more knowledge...   ~Shuryard (talk) 20:31, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Yeah, I'm just trying to be diplomatic. When I say "support", I really mean "I'd tolerate it if I had to". I'm not going to fervently oppose someone's positive, good-faith contributions if they have solid evidence behind them. Such contributions have their own value - they should just be channeled appropriately. As I alluded to in the discussion at Lore talk:Nede#OOG sources, I think if we start utilizing the General namespace more, we can have our cake and eat it, too. It's the logical place to go into depth about real-world information related to TES, and meanwhile, the lore pages could be free of reductionist comparisons like this. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 20:55, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
I couldn't agree more, the General namespace is there for a reason and is already home to some gems. —Legoless (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2015 (GMT)
There are thousands of cities with waterways...I do not see anywhere that the concept is derived from the city; another instead about Rome this is undeniable that the concept comes from this city regardless of the sources, impossible other connection...only Rome can be the city of inspiration. Sorry but I can not find a valid reason to deny this connection.
--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2015 (GMT)

() It looks a bit too advanced to be inspired by Rome. If you ask me, I would say it was inspired by Persian architecture. DRAGON GUARD(TALK) 15:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no doubt it is Roman architecture (even the sewers and bridges), the interior of the dome of the temple, the colonnades, the amphitheater. also the circular-shaped temples inside cyrondiil ... other elements have been added to make it more original but the bond with the Roman Empire is certain: the garments and armor of the guards, the concept of empire; and above all the names and words related to the Latin language ... and more ... The landscape then is typically Mediterranean and above all its variations seem that of southern Italy or perhaps Sicily. Rome is the capital of the empire and the seat of the emperor and the government of the empire.--Sweet Antichrist (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
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