Lore talk:Malachite

The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995
Jump to: navigation, search

Why is this Malachite now?[edit]

This is glass from LORE. Just because they streamlined the name in Skyrim that changes the Lore name of it??? This is complete bullocks. Ice 02:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The harvested material is called glass, the actual ore is called Malachite. This isn't new; in fact, it was called Malachite before Morrowind. A real-world example of the same thing is Aluminum. It is mostly mined from Bauxite, but the harvested material is called aluminum. Because this article is about the significance of the ore, not the significance of the armor made from it, the article is titled Malachite. Similarly, an article on ore veins would cover bauxite, which would mention it's significance as being the chief ore for making aluminum. ?• JATalk 02:54, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok thanks for clearing that. I thought maybe a random anonymous person that has only played Skyrim or something just changed it. --Ice 02:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Sure thing. I had to look this up myself to see if this was right or not. ?• JATalk 03:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Malachite is Volcanic?[edit]

Since when is Malachite a product of volcanic activity? I read through Light Armor ForgingRevus Sarvani, but couldn't see any mention of Malachite being of volcanic origin. I haven't played Morrowind yet, and I see in the references on this page some citations such as "Morrowind description" and "Events of Morrowind", yet a search of pages such as Morrowind:Raw Glass reveals nothing that positively links Malachite or Raw Glass to volcanic activity. Is there something specific that confirms that Malachite is supposed to be of volcanic origin in the world of the Elder Scrolls? I have marked this "fact" as {{Verification needed}} for now. Darictalk 12:25, 22 March 2013 (GMT)

I have done a little more research into this. I found an interesting discussion on gameskyrim.com in which the issue is discussed quite extensively. Some of the points coming out of that discussion were:
  • Other minerals in Tamriel often don't match up exactly to their real-world counterparts, such as Ebony, which is really a dense black wood, not a rock. Quicksilver is another name for Mercury, which wouldn't make terribly good armour.
  • "Maybe Bethesda thought that calling something 'Glass ore' didn't sound very good..."
  • The Malachite of Tamriel may just be "igneous intrusions into the rock."
I've also come across this quote numerous times, but have been unable to source it legitimately. Is it a citation direct from MW?
"The Dunmer are the masters of light armor design, and the glass armor is the pinnacle of that design. Inspired by traditional High Elven ornate armors, this very expensive armor is studded with native volcanic glass. Remarkably light and flexible, glass armor absorbs and distributes shock better than steel."
At least it specifically states "volcanic glass". Un-sourced, it isn't authoritative. Darictalk 16:20, 22 March 2013 (GMT)
That quote is from Morrowind:Garothmuk gro-Muzgub I believe, and is the "Morrowind description" mentioned in the references. I've removed the {{vn}} tag. —Legoless (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2013 (GMT)
Hang on a minute, your "...I believe..." seems somewhat un-encyclopedic and a little too uncertain for hanging UESP's hat on and calling it Lore. If we're going to make claims like this, shouldn't we back them up properly? Sure, the comments I came across in that discussion are definitely not Lore in any way, shape, or form. But I think we need to be able to point to verifiable facts if something is to be established as Lore here, shouldn't we? I'm only very new to TES Lore, so I really want to understand how this works. Please forgive my impetuousness, and please don't mistake it for disrespect. Consider me a Lore Novitiate, wanting to learn "how its done properly" from the masters. Darictalk 23:54, 22 March 2013 (GMT)
I still haven't seen a reply here, so I have to assume that this un-authoritative "...I believe..." still requires verification. Please provide verification of your statement that these are, in fact, the words of Garothmuk gro-Muzgub, or I will be reverting your revert of my {{VN}} tag in the next 48 hours. Thanks. Daric 07:37, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Here (Garothmuk is referring to ebony, but I think it's the dialogue Legoless was referring to). The quote above is from the MW guide, which can be found here. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 07:53, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
The dialogue you linked was for Ebony. When asked about glass he says "These light and elegant weapons of High Elven design feature extravagant use of rare metals and cutting edges made from rare crystalline materials. Duelists and assassins appreciate the delicate balance and sinister sharpness of glass weapons." Does not seem to mention volcanic activity. Is that MW guide unofficial? — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 08:01, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
I'm pretty sure it was the official guide, but I can't verify definitively. If so, I imagine a guide with Bethesda's stamp of approval should be good enough for our purposes here. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 08:13, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
I have the official morrowind guide right here, and the website linked is a word for word description. Jeancey (talk) 08:22, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

() Thanks for clarifying this. As I mentioned above, I'm still learning about Lore and Canon as it relates to the Elder Scrolls. So, I take it that "...a guide with Bethesda's stamp of approval..." is acceptable as a factual source of canonical information then. Good to know. I have a Prima Official Game Guide (the "official" in the name indicates it has Bethesda's stamp of approval) which I can now start rifling through again for canonical information. Daric 10:30, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

If the quote about glass being volcanic is from the game guide, the reference should probably be replaced with a link to The Morrowind Prophecies. —Legoless (talk) 13:23, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
It's also worth noting that most (all?) of the glass mines in Morrowind are found in the volcanic regions near Red Mountain. The same is true for ebony mines, with the exception of Raven Rock. Most of these mines have areas of lava in them as well, so the association with volcanic regions is pretty clearly seen. (Caldera's ebony mines are a bit further away from Red Mountain, but it's implied that they're in an extinct volcano. The word "caldera" literally means a crater caused by a volcano.) Mind you, most of Vvardenfell is volcanic, so almost anything found there is likely to be volcanic in nature. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
That probably would be quite relevant, TRL, if this were the Morrowind:Raw Glass page. But unfortunately this is the Lore:Malachite page, and I know for a fact that I have found malachite in places in Skyrim (as it says in this article) which are not anything to do with volcanoes. The volcanic raw glass of Morrowind is likely to be different to the Malachite described on this page, even though both are used to create "glass" armour and weapons. In the absence of any evidence so far that "Malachite" in the game is volcanic in origin, I think this page needs to be reworded. Daric 14:39, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
It's the same material. No need for a reword simply because Skyrim's ore locations are odd. —Legoless (talk) 14:54, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
How can it be the same material? Malachite is not volcanic in origin, that is a fact that is not disputed in any of the TES games. Raw Glass on the other hand, is very definitely formed from seismic activity. Harping back to the earlier discussion about this page, I see that the explanation was given by Jak that, "...it was called Malachite before Morrowind...", with the link to Daggerfall. Now, I haven't played Daggerfall either, but I understand that it is located in Hammerfell and High Rock. Tell me, are either of those regions known for their volcanic activity? From what I know, Hammerfell is primarily desert, and High Rock is said to be "...covered in loose forests; inland, it becomes more rocky and mountainous..." Now, unless the Malachite of Daggerfall is ONLY to be found in the said rocky and mountainous areas of High Rock, then this supports my assertion that the Malachite of both Daggerfall and Skyrim is very different to the Raw Glass of Morrowind. Daric 15:14, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Malachite in Daggerfall is just an ingredient. How can you say that they're separate materials if they both produce glass equipment? It's just a retcon. —Legoless (talk) 15:22, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

() And yet, back in March 2012, Jak mentioned such an ingredient above as evidence that "Malachite" and "Raw Glass" are the same thing, an error that was never addressed until now. Glass equipment is said to be of High Elven (Altmer) origin. While "little of the geography of the Summerset Isles is known", it would seem foolish to assume that there is much (or any) volcanic activity there. This discussion on the UESP forums also supports this. To quote Pilaf the Defiler, "Malachite deposits exist in several provinces. The Altmer invented the technique, but an escaped Dunmer slave later brought it to the rest of Tamriel." So, it would seem that the Altmer had been making glass equipment out of Malachite in the Summerset Isles long before they would have had access to the raw glass of Vvardenfell.

Pilaf then goes on to say that "Malachite deposits are especially prevalent around Red Mountain..." which would appear to contradict his original statement.

There is nothing in Morrowind (the game) to say that Malachite ever existed in Morrowind (the place). At least, not that anyone here has presented any evidence of. Daric 15:52, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

Just to mention, volcanic glass (Which we established is what was present in morrowind) is termed as "the amorphous (uncrystallized) product of rapidly cooling magma." Magma doesn't HAVE to come from a mountain volcano like red mountain. There are plenty of real world examples of these types of rocks being created in the earths crust and then pushed to the surface in earthquakes, or as the result of plate tectonics. Glass in morrowind could easily be a general term, with malachite being the more specific name. Glass is a type of mineral, not a specific mineral itself. Jeancey (talk) 16:08, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Thanks Jeancey, nice to see someone else thinking logically about this. However, being that I haven't played Daggerfall yet, please elucidate, are there any known geothermal areas in Hammerfell or High Rock? Daric 16:12, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Around 95% of the earths crust is thought to be igneous rock, so there is no reason why nirn would be much different and deposits could not be found there. Also, the Alik'r Desert borders the Dragontail Mountains, and the Wrothgarian Mountains are on the border between High Rock and Skyrim. There are plenty of Mountain Ranges in the area, which means that it is more than likely that the area has current volcanic activity as well as older deposits within the crust of the planet. Jeancey (talk) 16:17, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
"You may be surprised to think that Glass can be thought of as metallic, but appearances are deceiving. What we call Glass is nothing like the windows [sic] panes you see in houses. The greenish material is far stronger and has a much higher melting point." From Light Armor Forging, a book from Skyrim. It names the material glass, not malachite. How can it be disputed that the two materials are one in the same? —Legoless (talk) 16:23, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Fair enough, thanks for the insight into the geography, Jeancey. As I say, I'm not well versed in this myself. You make a good point. However, the argument still comes unstuck when you consider that Daggerfall (released 1996) specifically mentions Malachite, Morrowind (released 2002) specifically doesn't, and then later still, Skyrim (released 2011) specifically does. Which one is the retcon? Or was the retcon retconned in Skyrim? And unless Bethesda have said it is a retcon, then surely that is just speculation, and has no place in Lore? remember, I'm a Lore Novitiate, not a Loremaster, and I'm willing to learn. I just want to be able to understand and see the evidence, not just someone's "...I believe..." Daric 16:32, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

Malachite is Volcanic? - Edit Break 1[edit]

Legoless, as I mentioned at the very start of this discussion, I have already read that book and could find no evidence in there that Malachite is volcanic glass. That book talks about the nature of the armour, not about the material that is used in its construction. Daric 16:36, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

(edit conflict) I don't see it as being a retcon at all, simply that the dunmer of morrowind refer to the material by the generic name, volcanic glass. As an example of this, Dwemer Armor is made of Dwemer metal. Are we to assume that the dwemer called this material Dwemer metal? or do we just not know the dwemer term for it? Dwemer metal (or dwarven metal) is a generic term, same as raw glass is a generic term. The glass we see in most windows in buildings is completely different from glass used in windshields. There are specific names for these materials, but most people just use the term 'glass'. Thus, I would think that the term used in morrowind was just more general, as, if I recall correctly, most native dunmer settlements don't have windows (and those that do are often made of thin chitin). Since the dunmer generally didn't use glass, at least traditionally, they had no reason to use a specific term for the material that the armor is made out of, because there was really no other glass that they could have been referring to. That is my view anyway. Jeancey (talk) 16:39, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Glass is volcanic. Malachite is glass. Where does the confusion lie? —Legoless (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Also, There are basically 3 mines with large deposits of malachite: One in the mountains near Kynesgrove, one in the mountains near Shor's stone, and One in the mountains near morthal. Malachite isn't all that abundant in Skyrim. The one near kynesgrove, which has seven veins, is the only one in the base game and is located in the mountains that border Morrowind. The circumstantial evidence points to the conclusion that Malachite is fairly rare, and volcanic in origin, which is the same as raw glass was in morrowind. This leads to the conclusion that they are one and the same Jeancey (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) You're providing some very interesting information, Jeancey, thanks. I appreciate the depth that this discussion is taking now, as seems to be befitting of a debate about lore, rather than frivolous one-liners. I also appreciate the ongoing discussion here, but I will take my leave for now (it's almost 6am here, and I've had no sleep yet). I will ponder this and come back to it. Again, thanks to everyone who participated so far. It certainly has been educational. Daric 16:48, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

() Let me summarize what we have established so far from this discussion, using a table. The first column lists positive evidence that either supports or opposes the status quo. Positive evidence is the type that says "this is true". The second column lists negative evidence, of the type that says "in the absence of _________, this must be true". The status quo that the evidence either supports or opposes, is that malachite is volcanic glass. Any evidence marked in the table with is as yet unconfirmed in this discussion. Any evidence marked in the table with is admittedly circumstantial evidence.

From this table, I see only one piece of evidence that supports the status quo, which isn't either unconfirmed or circumstantial. Jeancey's assertion that Malachite is a generic name for volcanic glass seems to fly in the face of reason, when set against the real-world fact that Malachite is not a type of glass at all. Sure, the games use the term "Malachite" to refer to an ore that can be smelted into ingots, and from there forged into weapons and armour. There is nothing in that statement to say that Malachite, in its raw form, is a type of glass, let alone volcanic. By extension, would you say that sand is glass? No. Sand can be used to make glass, but that doesn't mean it is glass in its raw form.

As a child, I was a keen rockhound. My favourite minerals were malachite and azurite, both of which occur in similar locations in the real world. I owned several examples of both. Sliced and polished, malachite can take on quite a shiny, glassy appearance (see here for example). The fact that the Elder Scrolls refers to it as "glass" does not imply it is actual glass, as the in-game book that Legoless quoted says. " What we call Glass is nothing like the windows [sic] panes you see in houses." Were it to be any sort of glass, volcanic or otherwise, it would be completely inappropriate as a material for crafting weapons or armour from, other than ceremonial ones. Interestingly, that particular quote goes on to mention "greenish material", and then mentions that it has "a much higher melting point" than regular glass. Does anybody here happen to know what you get when you smelt malachite, at, say, 2000°F in the real world? A science lesson for today. The result is something that quite honestly resembles regular Elven Armour, rather than glass armour. This then is where the other quote above, the unconfirmed one from an official game guide, comes in to play. It would seem from this quote that glass armour goes beyond being just regular Elven armour because it is "studded with native volcanic glass". Not malachite, mind you, but actual glass. Studded. Not constructed entirely out of it. If you wanted to turn a regular suit of defensive armour into an offensive melee weapon, adding shards of sharp glass to it would be one way of achieving it, that's for sure.

I offer a {{Fishy Stick}} to the first person who correctly answers my little "science lesson" question. Also, if someone could confirm that quote about "studded with native volcanic glass", that would be really helpful. Daric 20:20, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

If all there is opposing it is real-world comparison, there is no evidence to remove it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:24, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Daric, I would like to point you to this vase here. It is made of a material called "malachite glass" which, according to the glass encyclopedia "is intended to look like malachite". It is possible that the glass being used isn't technically malachite as we know it, but something that resembles it? Jeancey (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Silencer, it's nice to see a version of Pascal's Wager here. Thanks for the comedic relief. Jeancey, you continue to amaze me, and yet again I learn something new from a website about a video game. Awesome stuff. I followed up by reading this page, and you're quite right, it is feasible. The question now is, is this what the game devs intended? Is there any evidence to support that this position is, in fact, the answer to the question of whether malachite in the game is volcanic. Or, is this just more supposition? The statement that "Malachite, commonly known as glass, is a rare, volcanic, milky translucent green crystal..." mentioned on this Lorespace article still needs verification. Or can we now apply Pascal's Wager to all Lore articles, and just make any wild claims we like, and in the absence of any contrary proof, they can remain as "fact"? Daric 20:57, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Well Daric, I think the main thing is that there is a large amount of circumstantial evidence equating them, with a distinct lack of evidence that they aren't the same. That is what Silencer is getting at I think. We don't just taking anything, but if the only evidence against the circumstantial is a real-world comparison, then we should go with the circumstantial evidence, as it is very likely that they are intended to be the same thing. I'll try and reach out to some people I know at Bethesda, and see if I can get an official answer. Jeancey (talk) 21:11, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
I am reminded of the fact that this is the "Unofficial" Elder Scrolls Wiki, it says it right there in the name. Having an "official" statement on such a minor matter would be terrific, and to have someone like you go out of their way to ask someone from Bethesda about this is more than I would have hoped for. Thanks Jeancey. In lieu of an answer one way or the other, I withdraw my objection to the claim that, for the purposes of the Elder Scrolls games, malachite is volcanic in origin. I'm sure that, when you get a definitive answer, you will cite it appropriately in the article for all to see.
This has been an interesting experience, and I look forward to crossing swords with other Loremasters again in the future. The {{Fishy Stick}} is still up for grabs, if someone can tell me what you get when you smelt malachite at around 2000°F. Daric 21:32, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Considering that the real world means nothing in games, I could feasibly smelt one small piece of malachite and get a full-blown house. The wiki is no place for throwing competitions, and any future discussions are best held without trying to compare a game to the real world. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:36, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Erm, you still haven't pointed to anything in-game that conclusively says it is so, Silencer, but I'll leave it there, to avoid this scholarly Lore debate devolving into a flame war. Daric 21:43, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
Bethesda can't "confirm" it out of game. See Citations in Lore for how we treat out-of-game developer sources. This discussion might be better suited to the forums if it begins to stray offtopic. —Legoless (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

() Considering that malachite is Cu2CO3(OH)2, I would assume you get copper, water and carbon dioxide... Jeancey (talk) 21:50, 26 March 2013 (GMT)

Just chiming in to say that I've restored Daric's comment that was deleted earlier. I've loosely followed this discussion for a bit, and while it's pretty clear you guys strongly disagree on this point, it reads very definitely like a thoughtful, civil discussion and not at all like a "flame war". In my opinion it was Daric's intent to gracefully back out of the debate (like, the opposite of trying to pick a fight), and I don't see any reason to delete the comment when that's all he was trying to say.
Right, that's all. Carry on! eshetalk 13:29, 27 March 2013 (GMT)

Malachite is Volcanic? - Edit Break 2[edit]

After a bit of a wiki break, and after having seen that logical, reasoned argument is still possible on the UESP wiki, I'd like to take Eshe's offer up, to carry on with this debate. I was disappointed with how this ended previously. My feeling is that the issue definitely was not resolved above. I had acquiesced on the disputed point of whether or not malachite in the game is volcanic in origin, in lieu of an out-of-game clarification from Bethesda which Jeancey had offered to arrange. As far as I was concerned, the debate ended there. However, Legoless then undermined that resolution by pointing out that "Bethesda can't 'confirm' it out of game", as per the Citations in Lore policy.

This leaves us back at square one. There still isn't anything conclusive from in-game that definitively states that malachite is volcanic in origin. I don't disagree that the raw glass of Morrowind is volcanic. I don't disagree that the volcanic raw glass of Morrowind is used to create glass weapons and armour. I don't disagree that malachite in Skyrim is used to create glass weapons and armour also. However, I don't see any evidence of a retconn saying that the malachite of Skyrim is the raw volcanic glass of Morrowind. Renaming the Lore:Glass page as Lore:Malachite may have been a mistake, in my view. At the time of that change, Jak Atackka mentioned that "The harvested material is called glass, the actual ore is called Malachite." I dispute this also, as I personally have never harvested any glass in Skyrim. I have, however, harvested malachite ore from malachite ore veins, and forged that ore into refined malachite ingots, which I have then used to make glass weapons and armour, sure. But even if we don't know how refined malachite relates to the glass weapons and armour crafted from it, there is still no evidence to say that malachite is volcanic in origin.

Therefore, unless someone can verify from in-game that malachite is, in fact, volcanic in origin, I am reverting Legoless' revert of my {{vn}} tag on this dubious "fact". Please do not remove the VN tag without providing additional evidence that has not already been covered and discredited above. You can't have it both ways. If the dev's can't corroborate things out-of-game, then any stated "facts" in lore should be corroborated with in-game evidence. Daric 00:37, 14 May 2013 (GMT)

Actually, Legoless is mistaken that Bethesda can't confirm it out of game. That is a perfectly valid source, per the section of the same section linked that says "OOG by Game Developers: OOG that has been written by a game developer should receive preferential treatment, especially for those works which reconcile apparent contradictions amongst the in-game sources." There is absolutely nothing against having Bethesda confirm something out of game for use in lore. No idea what Legoless was talking about when he said that. Jeancey (talk) 00:48, 14 May 2013 (GMT)
I think it's pretty clear the issue was resolved above. It's been resolved since March 26, if not before. I'm unclear on why you're bringing this up again. What has been "discredited" above? We have the Morrowind game guide, and all common sense tells us that Malachite and glass are the same thing. Bethesda has just been inconsistent in their labeling from game to game. It happens all the time. Books get new inventory names. The "Tusked Bristlebacks" of Bloodmoon turn into the "Bristlebacks" of Dragonborn. Same exact thing, two different labels, no discernible reason whatsoever for the difference. It's the same with the glass and malachite labels. It means nothing. So, the Morrowind game guide, which can be treated as an in-game source, tells us the "glass" used for armor is volcanic. We know glass is malachite, which can be inferred from Light Armor Forging and I'm sure many other sources. And any real-world science to the contrary takes a back seat in the TES-verse, as it always does. So why are we still talking about this? What's left to do besides slapping a cite on it and calling it a day? Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 05:11, 14 May 2013 (GMT)
"We know glass is malachite, which can be inferred from Light Armor Forging" Is that the only level of evidence you can provide in favour of this? Inference? Really? To quote myself above (which is why I didn't want to go back over things we had already established), I said on 26 March:
"...as I mentioned at the very start of this discussion, I have already read that book and could find no evidence in there that Malachite is volcanic glass."
And yet you still want to use Light Armor Forging as your "proof"? Were does it say, specifically, in that book, that malachite is glass, or that malachite is volcanic in origin? Remember, the wiki link on "greenish material" to malachite is not actually found in the in-game book. It was added by a wiki editor, and is itself supposition. The same book later goes on to say that malachite is the principle ingredient of glass armour. That does not imply that malachite itself is glass. It is an ingredient used in making glass armour. We don't know how that works, but it does. I have no problem setting aside logic and real-world science to accept that as an in-game fact, and I won't try to explain it, as that too would only be assumption. What I'm looking for are facts from in-game. If we cannot prove that malachite is of volcanic origin, then the reference to volcanism in this article should be removed.
On the other hand, if you want to continue with the assumption that "glass" is volcanic in origin, then we need to split this article back into its Morrowind and Skyrim parts, listing raw glass (as harvested in Morrowind) as being volcanic in origin, and malachite ore as being something else entirely. Yet both are able to be used to create glass weapons and armour.
Now, if someone could please give evidence from in-game that malachite is volcanic, and stop disputing whether or not we should be having this discussion, that would be great. If not, then we either need to remove the word "volcanic" from this article, or split the article up. Which would you prefer? Daric 06:42, 14 May 2013 (GMT)
Well, what I'd prefer is an answer to my question. Voicing your desire for more explicit corroboration isn't really the same thing as discrediting the current sources. By deprecating inferences in general, you are not making the inference that glass is malachite seem doubtful.
We make inferences all the time. We must, because Bethesda frequently gives us incomplete and inconsistent information. This is not a problem unique to glass/malachite by any stretch. What you have not presented is any reason to think that malachite and glass are different. We have plenty of reason, on the other hand, to think they're the same. As we get more information, our understanding could change, but for now, glass and malachite being the same is the logical conclusion, and that's how the page should treat them. So leaving out "volcanic" on this page would be a disservice to the reader. If you don't like the fact that Bethesda hasn't spelled out everything perfectly, take it up with them, but we have to do the best with the information we're given. Anyways, I responded to this because the language in your revival made me think I might have missed something in this argument, but this is not the case.
You don't like the outcome here; I can relate. But when I've made my position clear in a disagreement, and the community disagrees, I shrug and find something better to do. I don't come back two months later to reiterate the same argument in the hopes that, what, people would have changed their stances in their old age? That throwing a few back-handed insults at us would prove persuasive? This is just the wiki equivalent of filibustering. It's not a great way to "win friends and influence people".
While I don't want to encourage this behavior, I'm not trying to be unhelpful. How about we just quote the relevant part of Morrowind game guide in a note? Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 18:44, 14 May 2013 (GMT)
I wasn't trying to "win friends and influence people" at all. I was merely trying to improve the quality of a page on the wiki. But I guess I was wrong. Logical, reasoned argument is perhaps still not possible on the UESP wiki. There still seems to be that stalwart element that says "well, this is how we've always done things in the past, so it must be right". If the absence of evidence is treated as evidence here, then this wiki clearly doesn't deserve my time and effort to correct obvious mistakes on it. I'll take my leave. Daric 22:11, 14 May 2013 (GMT)

() My opinion on all of this? Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 23:54, 14 May 2013 (GMT)

Ooh, look, I can cite wikipedia too. Daric 02:19, 15 May 2013 (GMT)
Honestly, I don't think AKB was being smartalec-y, or at least not intentionally. I think he was just suggesting we drop the entire topic so we don't start pissing people off, which often happens in these types of discussions (see the whole references debacle a few weeks ago). Jeancey (talk) 02:29, 15 May 2013 (GMT)
That does tend to happen when you have experienced editors, admins even, making such remarks after the smoke has settled. See also edit break 1 above, and how that ended. Exactly the same. I walk away from a debate and someone (who should know better) makes a smart-aleck remark afterwards. Daric 02:40, 15 May 2013 (GMT)
This topic is now closed for the benefit of all involved.