Lore talk:Skyrim

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Vampires[edit]

shouldnt there be something about the vampires who live in skyrim? — Unsigned comment by Rohan2116 (talkcontribs) at 00:16 on 28 July 2011 (GMT)

Yes, probably. The article is quite lacking. --Legoless 23:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
We don't know enough about them yet to put any real information on it, all that we have is general knowledge, vague information and guess work from earlier games. 2.219.179.246 11:51, 2 November 2011 (UTC)KNJB98
The information available isn't that negligible, although I'm sure we'll have more to work with come Skyrim. --Legoless 12:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I dont know if vampire information is essential to this page, unless there is a bestiary section added or something. The vampires page uses info from the book immortal blood, for skyrim vampires. it says "The Volkihar vampires of eastern Skyrim live under haunted, frozen lakes and only leave their dens to feed... the Vampires of skyrim are very similar to the Oblivion Vampires, the only differences being the appearance of the vampire and they are only weakened by the sun and not burned by it, other differences are the powers though a few of the oblivion Vampire powers remain." This doesn't seem to match up with actual gameplay so... Hope 04:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Revamp?[edit]

Is anyone doing any significant work on this page? I'm about to stick it in a sandbox and tinker with it until Nov. 11, but I won't if someone has already started. Minor Edits 21:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

While I'm not entirely sure, I haven't noticed anyone working on this page in a sandbox. I watch the wiki enough to be aware of most recent events, so if someone is working on this page in a sandbox, they haven't been working on it in a while (or I've somehow missed their edits). --AKB Talk Cont Mail 21:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Rifton/Riften[edit]

Just a minor spelling error, I can't change it due to the page lock. — Unsigned comment by 2.218.99.239 (talk) on 1 December 2011

If you look at the Riften page, Rifton is also a name for the town. — Unsigned comment by 80.202.83.251 (talk) on 29 April 2012

Third Era as current[edit]

In the section on Geography, it is stated that Whiterun and Hrothgar are under the control of a witch, the source coming from late in the third era. The witches' coven no longer controls the area in the fourth era, and so this section is a bit confusing. 24.14.51.237 21:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

A lot of things in the lore still need updating. Minor Edits 21:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Throat of the World[edit]

I'm a bit confused about "...and Kyne is said to have created man.[8]" since Reference '8' doesn't lead to any information regarding the creation of men.

It leads to Varieties of Faith, which says "Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. She is often called the Mother of Men."

'Mother of Men' does not really specify anything about the creation of men though. — Unsigned comment by 91.113.82.49 (talk) at 15:48 on 11 December 2011
No matter what the creation of men is, the Varieties of Faith reference doesn't say anything about the throat of the world or necessarily that Kyne created man. On another note; the annotated annuad says the the worlds of creation were given birth to by Nir. The wandering ehlnofey of those worlds became the men of Nirn. In the monomyth, it states "The magical beings of Mythic Aurbis... these are spirits made from bits of the immortal polarity... created the races of the mortal Aurbis in their own image... The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis" Not very specific but still helps Hope 05:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
According to Children of the Sky, the Nords believe they were formed when "the sky exhaled onto the land"- in other words, wind. According to PGE1, the wind is the personification of Kynareth. Ergo, Kynareth created the Nords. Varieties of Faith is often cited to support the proposition that Kyne is just the Nordic name for Kynareth. It's true that VOF never actually says that, but does say that Kynareth is the Goddess of the Air, the strongest of the Sky spirits (keep in mind, Nords call themselves Children of the Sky), and that she is associated with rain. Kyne, meanwhile, is the "Nordic Goddess of the Storm" (i.e., wind and rain), and is called the Mother of Men. Most importantly, Kynareth is not a part of the Nordic pantheon of gods, while Kyne is. PGE1 likely calls the wind the personification of Kynareth, not Kyne, because it was written by Imperials (and pretty bigoted ones at that), who would not use the Nordic term for an deity they perceived to be their own. I think the logical conclusion from all this is that the people of Tamriel do not generally consider the two to be separate entities, and that Nords, true to their nature, just have a slightly more violent conception of Kynareth, which they call Kyne. Therefore, the Nords believe they were created by Kyne on the Throat of the World, and the original statement was accurate. Minor Edits 22:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
In Skyrim, once one has initiated the quest Kyne's Sacred Trials, Froki Whetted-Blade can be asked "Tell me about Kyne". He will respond, "Those sycophants at the temple would call her Kynareth. Just a pale shadow shadow the truth, like all Temple Divines". So I'm gonna change back the note. Minor Edits 02:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Dragons?[edit]

Acording to in-game history from TESV, dragons ruled Skyrim in the early ages, with humans as slaves. But this can't possibly have been before the coming of Ysgramor? So, what kind of humans were they? And what of the falmer? I thaught they where the majority in Skyrim before Ysgramor. Is it possible that they where early needic settlers? People from Atmora that came before Ysgramor and, because of that, cannot be called nords?Jyggorath 23:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

In game their are three nord warriors that fight Alduin, Reman Cyrodil's Akaviri DragonGuard fought dragons, all after Ysgramor's migration. The dragons did not rule Skyrim exclusively. They came from Akivir.--Br3admax 23:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I do not think Dragons really came from Akavir, (i mean they don't originate there). They most likely used to inhabit all Nirn, but settled to the areas with most mountains. 91.113.84.175, 4:53am (GMT+1), 14 December 2011
So, you're saying that the dragons partially ruled Skyrim sometime during the first era, before the Akaviri invasion, but after the coming of the nords as a group? If that's the case, then that time period is well within the boundries of recorded history in Tamriel. Perhaps the use of the elder scroll to send Alduin through time was what caused the dragon break, and that's why there's no reference of this in earlier elder scrolls games? Because no one was able to remember? Jyggorath 14:29, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Of course they 'remember', they all just think it's just legends and myths...until Alduin's return. 91.113.84.175, 4:52am (GMT+1), 14 December 2011
Dragons were considered a reality in Tamriel until well into the Second Era. The last reference I can find to one is 2E 369, and Paathurnax, and I believe a dragon seen in Daggerfall, both remained in Tamriel, apparently awake, for millennia. The point is, the dragons' control over Skyrim likely died with or soon after Alduin's disappearance, though the exact date is a little murky. Minor Edits 09:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I may be misinterpreting things, but it seems that the Nords ruled Skyrim some time during the Mythic Era (to put it rather broadly). This is why the Nords see Ysgramor's colonisation as a "return". Evidence for this exists in many of the Nordic ruins in the province, most of which were from the time of the dragons, pre-dating Ysgramor. A more specific example would be the Skyforge: while I admit that it may not necessarily be Noric in origin, it was found abandoned by the first Companions in the very centre of modern Skyrim, far from Saarthal, Windhelm, etc. The legend of Kyne creating mankind atop the Throat of the World is further proof that humans are not natives of Atmora. --Legoless 11:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
That all looks right to me. What really bothers me is that it's not clear at all when Elves entered the picture. Some circumstantial things suggest that elves were there before any significant human presence, and some things suggest vice versa. Anyways, my best guess is that nedes, Atmorans, and various races of elves must have begun migrating to Skyrim around the Middle to Late Middle Merethic Era, and it was around the same time that the dragon cult existed. Minor Edits 20:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Winterhold should be Windhelm[edit]

"Skyrim is a wealthy and thus powerful province.[3] Their culture is somewhat influenced by their neighbors, such as Morrowind. The city of Winterhold, rival of Solitude, is near the border, and many refugees and escaped slaves have fled there, bringing Morrowind's culture and ideas to Skyrim's eastern lands and stimulating their economy.[3] However, Hrothgar and Whiterun, once places with powerful economies, have been crippled by natural disasters and attacks from frost trolls and bandits.[3] The area is now under the control of Jsashe, the leader of the local witches coven, and a self-proclaimed priestess of Lorkhan.[3] Four out of the five tallest mountains in Tamriel are found in Skyrim, as is the hardy Ironwood Nut, which grows on Ironwood trees deep in Skyrim's forests.[1][7]"

This section of lore is incorrect, the city that most closely borders morrow wind is Windhelm not Winterhold. Just a minor correction that I can't make because the page is locked. -Panda4life, 10:43, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

After looking at information about Winterhold in this book, I would have to say that information is accurate. ESTEC 22:48, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

language?[edit]

this skyrim always use English? --KLL Joe 07:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

In The Elder Scrolls the appropriate name for the language is "Tamrielic". But yes, it basically is English. ESTEC 07:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this, and I can't find and reference for a language called "Nordic" which is currently listed on the page. It likely comes from this frighteningly unsourced article. (Where the hell did they pull "Proto-Aldmeris" out of?) I say we remove the "language" part from the summary altogether, and perhaps the "currency" section as well (seeing as the entire economy has a gold standard). I might bring this up on the Community Portal, as the summaries in general don't sit well with me. --Legoless 13:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
That sounds like a plan. Currency for sure is useless, and as for native languages, I think they should be noted in-article ONLY if it can be cited from an in-game book or other valid source, rather than in the summary boxes. ESTEC 22:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)


Real life references?[edit]

I found out that Siberia and Skyrim has lots in common. Including coastline and major rivers. Also the area between Solitude and Morthal is swampy in Siberia, and area around Markarath is mountainous in Siberia. Heres map of Siberia with Skyrim's cities in it.
0skyrimberia.png

It may be possible, seeing how similar to the customs of that area with the Nords. But, I am not so sure about the map being worth mentioning on the article if that's what you mean with it. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 22:26, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Could be worth of mentioning, but maybe without that big picture. Could be linked in references section, but i should fix those typos first.
Fixed it!.-- 22:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Capital[edit]

What's the capital of Skyrim? I remember someplace being mentioned as such. If it exists, could it be somehow added to the article? -- kertaw48 13:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

It was Winterhold before it was destroyed, and during the events of Skyrim it's Solitude. That's not to say it isn't changed again depending on who wins the Civil War, but that's impossible to determine. Kitkat TalkContribE-mail 14:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Ah, that actually explains a lot. It's strange seeing most of the articles on regions being in different eras in time. -- kertaw48 14:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't find any specific mention of Winterhold ever being Skyrim's capital (it says in the Winterhold city article that the ruler of Winterhold was also High King of Skyrim way back in the early First Era, but that doesn't necessarily mean Winterhold was the capital at that time), so I removed it from the "infobox" in the article for now. We know for sure that Solitude was the capital of the Imperial province of Skyrim by 4E 201 (and I think it may have been capital was far back at least as Queen Potema, not sure), and Windhelm was the capital of the First Empire of the Nords, but not much about the intervening years. Croaker (talk) 23:07, 15 December 2012 (GMT)
Kraldar mentions that Winterhold was an "early capital" of Skyrim twice in his dialogue. It's reasonable to assume, therefore, that this was some time before The Great Collapse. Kitkat TalkContribE-mail 12:07, 16 December 2012 (GMT)

() I don't think Winterhold was the capital as recently as 4E 122. "Early" and "once the capital" implies (to me) much further into history than 80 years ago. --Enodoc (talk) 00:01, 14 February 2013 (GMT)

Whiterun[edit]

Its position in the center of Skyrim makes it a central trading hub, where much of Skyrim's wealth accumulates. To me this sounds like speculation. I can’t find anything referring to Whiterun as wealthy or a trading hub. All I can find is it being crippled from fights and severe weather in the Third Era and in the Fourth Era it was center stage of the civil war which would have crippled it further.

To be honest, editing the lore section is a bit daunting. It seems like it has a much stricter atmosphere to it, but I’m unable to find anywhere which states what counts as speculation and what we can and cannot add? I am certain I have seen a page on lore policy but I can’t seem to find it right now. Searching is not helping me either; perhaps I’m just having an off day. *cries in the corner* If someone could point me in the right direction I would much appreciate it! — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 22:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I've pretty much just given up on this page. But I agree that this seems like speculation. Without a source, it should go. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 22:53, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
One of the Loading Screens for Skyrim says: "Whiterun's central location in Skyrim has made it a trading hub of the entire province." So it doesn't seem all that speculative. Kitkat TalkContribE-mail 00:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Do you think the inference at the latter half of the statement is reliable? That being a trading hub means that it's a place where much of Skyrim's wealth accumulates? Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok I added it as a reference but I'm unsure of what a province actually is. Is Whiterun the central trading hub of Skyrim or just Whiterun Hold? And that still doesn't necessarily imply its where much of Skyrim's wealth accumulates. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 00:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Dwemer[edit]

There is very little about the dwemer here even though they had a huge outpost (Blackreach) there. They should be given a section. User:bw117 16:56, 31 August 2012 (CST)

There is no article for them in the Skyrim namespace because no Dwemer make an appearance in the game. --XyzzyTalk 02:17, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
This is lorespace, so the Dwemer definitely should be mentioned. —Legoless 11:55, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Revamp[edit]

It could be better, but I think this is at least better that the previous version, which was essentially still a pre-release article.

I decided to lead with "Geography" since a geographical area is the subject. Other pages may do otherwise (I haven't checked), but I think this is the most logical arrangement given the subject and the information available in this case.

I managed to throw in some images on the left side without making it look too ugly (I think), but the content of, length of, and spacing between the paragraphs has been intentionally and carefully edited and arranged so that images should mesh well at 120px or 300px. The intermediate sizes remain untested. The point being, be careful when editing, as it can easily be thrown out of whack and look bad. It might not matter, of course, as the paragraphs still look funky on my phone.

I obviously left the heavy lifting regarding the history of Skyrim to the Nord page, incorporating it by reference. I don't know where exactly to draw the line to determine what history was worth mentioning here explicitly, but there's no reason for us to repeat all that stuff, so I gave it my best shot and stuck to the broad strokes about demographic changes and rulers.

The book list is, I think, pretty comprehensive, but I might've missed a few (keep in mind the topic is Skyrim, not Nords, which does sometimes beg a different treatment).

The list of known High Kings is pretty complete; I've been compiling it for a while and adding a king whenever I saw one in the lore, but there could still be a few missing. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 06:46, 22 December 2012 (GMT)

Divided Skyrim[edit]

TESO book Jorunn the Skald-King claimed, that Skyrim was in 6th century of 2nd era divided on Western Skyrim (seat in Solitude) and Eastern Skyrim (presumably Windhelm, hold of Rift with Riften and Eastmarch). Should someone insert this in history section? Or it is non-canonical? --213.155.255.148 18:31, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

It is Canonical, we just need more information about it. It will probably wait until it is closer to the release of ESO. Jeancey (talk) 18:33, 16 February 2013 (GMT)
Well, it seems to me, that ESO would take place after the unification of Skyrim by Jorunn (Jorunn was crowned High King). Or he just held that title and the two hostile (he as prince of Eastern Kingdom must go to Solitude in disguise in his youth) kingdoms still exists like holds in TES V? Well, never mind. --213.155.255.148 18:39, 16 February 2013 (GMT)
It quite possibly will be unified during ESO, but I'm sure that people will still talk about how it was unified, and how it existed before. Jeancey (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

List of High Kings/Queens[edit]

Thought we should discuss a recurring issue regarding the High King list, which is whether certain people are truly High Kings or Queens.

Here's my personal operating assumption: references to Kings and Queens in Skyrim are referring to the High King, or High Queen. This makes sense because all other rulers are merely jarls, anyways. It's only natural they would drop the "High" in short-hand, because there's no need to distinguish. So Potema, Mantiarco, Malbjaarn, and Jorunn were all High Kings/Queens, even though the term "High" is not explicitly used in any source material. It is an assumption, yes, but all sources should be read in harmony with each other, and this has the benefit of taking all sources as accurate.

I also have a tangential hypothesis, which is that until the Third Empire, most if not all High Kings ruled from Windhelm. Then the power base was shifted to the Blue Palace in Solitude. This would help support the notion that King in Skyrim = High King for a wide variety of circumstantial reasons. Queen Potema, for instance. It would make a lot of sense for her to be the High Queen given her residence in Solitude and her amply-demonstrated power and influence.

Anyways, we're operating with a lack of information here, but we need to decide how to address this issue in a uniform manner until if and when more information is available. Here's the choices I see:

1) We continue to assume Kings and Queens in Skyrim are jarls until some source uses the term "High" (a little narrow-minded, imho).

2) Make the small (but relatively more logical) assumption that "Kings" and "Queens" in Skyrim are referring to High Kings or Queens, or

3) Address the ambiguity in a note.

Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 07:26, 5 December 2013 (GMT)

The slight issue we have with Malbjaarn is that at this point skyrim is split into two, with a king/queen in both eastern and western skyrim. We know that she is queen in eastern skyrim. Also, Ayrenn mentions drinking with Queen Malbjaarn of WINDHELM, not Queen Malbjaarn of Skyrim, which seems to indicate that she is NOT high queen of skyrim, but rather rules just in windhelm. Joruun is specifically mentioned to be crowned High King however. Jeancey (talk) 07:32, 5 December 2013 (GMT)
So, I assume that's +1 for note? Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 07:46, 5 December 2013 (GMT)
I'd say it's a mix of 1 and 3 for the following reasons. Reading the source material, it's safe to say the list of monarchs in Skyrim in the 1st and most of the 2nd eras were the undisputed High Kings. The 3rd Era is where it gets muddy because these monarchs are often titled "King <whoever> of <city>".
Following Jeancey's point of "Queen Malbjaarn of Windhelm". It should be noted that in A History of Daggerfall, Borgas (a High King) is noted as simply "Borgas of Winterhold". However this is not to say I believe that all instances of King = High King.
While it's recorded that the seat of power certainly shifted to the city of Solitude, I'm not entirely convinced the monarchs of the 3rd era (and probably Malbjaarn) were High Kings and Queens - rather it looks more like they ruled more akin to Jarls of city states. Look at how they are described:
  • "King Mantiarco of the Nordic Kingdom of Solitude" (The Wolf Queen, Book II) - Not the "Nordic Kingdom of Skyrim".
  • Amodetha was noted as Queen when her husband Mantiarco was King.
  • Potema likely ruled more than just Solitude, as suggested in The Wolf Queen books, but the given the politics at the time and that the term "The kingdom of Solitude" is used so often that is seems highly unlikely it pertains to the entire province of Skyrim.
  • Pelagius' rule doesn't seem to reach past Solitude, as noted: "As king of Solitude, Pelagius' eccentricities..."
  • This one is the kicker - Pocket Guide Skyrim 3rd ed notes: King Thian's [of Solitude] alliance by marriage with Macalla, the Queen of Dawnstar. Here we have two monarchs of two different cities co-existing. Are they equals? Are they both Jarls? Is Thian High King? We can only guess.
  • It seems many Imperials view the Jarls as pseudo-Kings and sometime call them such. This is enforced by an Imperial captain who has dialogue along the lines of "...The kings of Skyrim... oh, I mean the Jarls... need to understand etc...", when discussing the civil war.
In closing, I believe it's too much of a jump to assume every instance of "King" = "High King". Like Jeancey mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a clear High ruler in times of strife in Skyrim. East and West have their own kings. City states, etc. When a ruler comes along (like the Skald) to unite the province, they are usually recognized as High King. It should be dealt with on a case by case basis rather than a blanket statement. --Jimeee (talk) 18:04, 5 December 2013 (GMT)
Even though this is a very late addition to Jimeee's thoughts on it, I still think it is worth posting:
Skyrim and Nords are loosely based on the ancient Norse culture of Scandinavia. Before and even sometime after the unifications of the three traditional Scandinavian nations, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, the titles of king and jarl were seen as equal. In the petty kingdoms before the unifications the title of the ruler could be either jarl or king based on local tradition, though the latter was the more predominant.
After the unifications the rulers of the new unified kingdoms let their vassals keep their old titles as kings or jarls over their traditional land, and even sometimes appointed new local kings (and new jarls) were the old ones had been killed during the unification wars. Later on, it became customary not to appoint vassals as local kings, only keeping the jarl title for this.
In this way the interchangeableness of the jarl and king titles in ancient Skyrim, ending up with only jarl as the vassal title later, is only a mirror of the real world Norse kingdoms. —MortenOSlash (talk) 06:10, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

() By the way, if you want to list all the "high kings" of Skyrim. At the time of ESO, the Jarl of Solitude is called Svargrim. As Solitude is the capital of Western Skyrim, Svargrim is the "high king" of Western Skyrim. --Lady freyja (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

Great point. We already have Svartr listed as High King of the west, but Svargrim may have came after him. If I can't find anything conflicting I'll update the page. --Jimeee (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2015 (GMT)