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Skyrim talk:Elder Scrolls Historical References/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Elder Scrolls Historical References discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.


M'aiq also showed up in Morrowind, east of Dagon Fel on a small island.. Gosh he's old. -- 20:46, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

     "M'aiq's father was also called M'aiq. As was M'aiq's father's father. At least, that's what his father said." - M'aiq the Liar. So the 
      M'aiq in Skyrim is likely to be the grandson of the M'aiq in Morrowind.                     

Another possible oblivion reference, I found a book (cant remember the name, something with 'theif' in the title iirc) that gave advice to aspiring theives. The author said he had stolen an elder scroll from the white gold tower, like in the Oblivion Theives Guild quest.

- For the quest 'Elder Knowledge', the NPC Septimus Signus' outpost has within it a large, dwemer box, taking up much of the cavern. Speaking to him, it is revealed that, purportedly, the heart of Lorkhan from Morrowind is within the box. He even makes mentions of the Nerevarine supposedly destroying it. Obviously a Morrowind reference.

Links to relevant Pages

Could someone add links to the relevant pages on the UESP for each reference in the Morrowind section? For example:

"In eastern Windhelm there's a cornerclub called the "New Gnisis Cornerclub"."

..but this means nothing to me if I have not played Morrowind. A link of some sort to what, exactly, this references would be most appreciated. KeitaKoneko 21:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Sheogorath in Skyrim

He mentions specifically that he was there when Martin turned into the avatar of Akatosh. More than relaying the story he actually says he was there himself, which is what lends weight to him being the champion from Oblivion. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 05:59 on 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Including several other remarks, such as the mention of a fox, a severed head, butterflies, blood (too many possibilities here). It fairly obvious that this is the champion. Which is why it's already mentioned on this page. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 05:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Its not actually obvious. To me, I took it more as he was watching the events play out due to it being a time of madness, the death of the Emperor leading to chaos and sending the Empire spiralling. Honestly I doubt that it would be the Champion since how would the Champion end up looking exactly like Sheogorath and living for about 200 years? From all I've gathered from the Shivering Isles, the Champion merely became a mortal with the powers of the Madgod, allowing the Greymarch to end and the Isles to not fall like they normally would have. But the Champion would still be mortal, thus allowing them to die.--Dro'Bakha 14:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I dunno, I kind of always assumed that the supernatural position of "Madgod" carried supernatural powers with it; when the Champion assumed that title, he was fated (doomed?) to truly be the Madgod, even if it took a while for that to set in. This is speculation, of course, but the fact that Sheo still exists implies that if the Champion became Madgod, then he became an immortal daedric prince and assumed the identity of Sheo, in some very strong sense.
At any rate, the Elder Scrolls games have always had the problem that the player has vast freedom and yet must be a historical figure with a single description in successive games. So, my Champion is remembered for saving Cyrodiil, which is so important that it overshadows whether or not he was also the leader of the Fighters' Guild, or whether he went on to assume the persona of Sheogorath, which didn't even happen in Nirn itself.
I figure this is meant to leave open the possibility that Sheo is the once-Champion of Cyrodiil. If you played through Shivering Isles, then yes, Sheo is the Champion; for me, he was once an unwashed, barely-literate Khajiit sneak thief. If you didn't play through SI, then Sheo was "present" in a more spiritual sense at a momentous event, and certainly had a hand in a few particularly insane occurrences. If you didn't play Oblivion at all, then the Madgod is just saying crazy stuff. It's almost certainly meant to be open to interpretation; roleplay it as you wish. Asterai 01:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Sheogorath isn't the champion from Oblivion, he is Sheogorath from Oblivion. He was "present" during all those times because he is a Daedric prince, and they can and do watch what goes on in the mortal realm. As for the Wabbajack, he can and will take it back whenever he pleases. As it says in a book in Oblivion, Daedric artifacts seem to get lost and found every now and again. The Champion would be over 200 years old in the time of Skyrim, he/she has probably died and Wabbajack was returned to Sheo. The Daedra do not age and die (or die in general, for that matter), so I don't think it is likely that Sheo was once a man. Besides, he clearly states that he is having tea with an old friend; Pelagius was long dead in the time that the Champion was questing. It is an interesting theory, but I don't think it fits as a definite historical reference.
That said, everything that he says still fits as hints about the events of Oblivion, just not the part about him being the champion. 08:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

At the end of shivering isles sheogorath bestows upon the champion of cyrodiil the title of madgod making him the new sheogorath. as for appearance, a daedric prince may assume any form that he/she pleases they have no race or gender as it is mentioned in game. The Sheogorath that gave you the title at the end of shivering isles possibly returned to his original form as the daedric prince of order, Jygglagg (spell check) when the ritual of greymarch was broken. Canonically the Sheogorath we see is the champion of cyrodiil taking the familiar form of sheogorath as he is depicted in game so as not to confuse players. Using logical conclusions drawn from basic knowledge of lore it is quite obvious, and luckily the elder scrolls are much easier to canonize than the fallout games as the fallout world has infinitely more choices and conclusions to boot. --Gdude666 1:42, 13 December 2011

Perhaps because Sheogorath's worshippers considered him a man with a Scottish accent, the Champion became the image that they worshipped? I seem to remember reading a book in Oblivion which mentioned that the appearance of gods is influenced by mortals. Starbucksisevil 20:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

To be honest the reason is probably that Bethesda said to themselves, "Oh, I know lets put the champion of Cyrodiil in skyrim as an easter egg from Oblivion". If you want an in-game answer then either the other daedric prince's curse of madness was put onto the champion of cyrodiil or he was transformed into Sheogorath after inheriting his powers.RIM 20:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Sweet Roll

When guards in Skyrim ask, "Let me guess, did someone steal your sweetroll?", would that be a valid reference? It refers to more minor elements of the games, but the developers have made a point of including sweetroll references for a while now. --Twentyfists 19:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

ciceros journal

the last entry in Cicero's Journal - Volume 1 refers to him "posing as a starstruck fan" to the grand champion of the arena, thats a reference to the Adoring Fan (Eddie The Head 10:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC))

imperial city watch helmet

I was on the quest Scoundrel's Folly for the thieves guild, and at the end of it I came across a rather unique looking imperial helmet. It is a very ornate Corinthian style helm with a blue plume. Is it possible that this helm is a done up version of the Legion helmet, or palace guard helmet from Oblivion? 05:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


Romlyn Dreth is most definitely related to Valen. I've heard him tell Keerava stories about Valen. 00:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Some entries for Morrowind are not quite right

1) Hlaalu Farm is not named after a Great House. It is named after its owner. Hlaalu is a common surname in Morrowind and not always tied to House Hlaalu.

2) Pelagia Farm is also named after the surname of its Imperial owner. It is likely that Pelagiad was also named after some Pelagia fellow. I don't think there is a direct connection between Pelagia Farm and Pelagiad. The closest possible connection would be if Pelagiad was named after a relative or ancestor of the guy who owns Pelagia Farm.

Commonly within Morrowind people with the last name Hlaalu had ties with the great house however after the entire province of morrowind was devastated by war and Vvardenfell was destroyed however due to the extensive destruction of morrowind it is possible that many of the great houses have been forced apart and lost most if not all of their power and wealth. Remember in game it has been more than two hundred years since morrowind and alot can happen as well as that the details we can only draw simple logical conclusions and speculate what happened to in much of the in game world. --Gdude666 1:49, 13 December 2011

Mjoll and the Cliff Racers

I don't know if this counts as a reference to previous games, but when Mjoll is your companion she talks (and annoys the hell out of me) about going on hunting expeditions to Morrowind and the Cliff Racers making an excellent sport. Blink86 00:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


Didn't Vvardenfell no longer exist at the time Skyrim is set and if so, how is it still viewable from Skyrim? Andil the mage 17:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The civilization no longer exists, but the physical landscape does. Jayden Matthews 22:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I thought the island had been blown up Andil the mage 17:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Shadowbanish Wine

Don't know if this qualifies for putting it up, so I post it here first.

During the Thieves Guild Quest Line if you talk to Vekel after the Quest involving Golum-Ei, he comments on Golum-Ei giving him a bad shipment of Shadowbanish Wine a while back. Clearly a reference to the item in Oblivion. Blink86 15:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

moved arena note

  • One of the lute tunes played by bards in taverns, is a shorter, slower and less lively remake of this track, which was played in taverns in Arena and later reused for Daggerfall.
i moved this because, the tunes sound nothing like each other and we don't host links to youtube. (Eddie The Head 05:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC))

Reference to Morrowind/Umbra

I encountered an NPC called "Old Orc" who is searching for a great death, much like Umbra did.--Dro'Bakha 11:44, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

daggerfall note

  • Scattered through Alftand are remnants of an expedition team, including the corpse of Yag gra-Gortwog.
i just followed the link and well, Gortwog is his first name in daggerfall and his last name is different and yag is a female. I also think the references to morrowind names should be gone, theyre just traditional names. (Eddie The Head 10:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC))


  • I think it needs to be removed. Its a common name, and 200 years after Oblivion, Dorian's been long dead. Should be trashed. VivaLaColdplaya 03:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I cuncur. --Killfetzer 09:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)


Any reason not to put this on the page? Minor Edits 06:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

None so far as I can see. Keening was mentioned, so I don't see why Chillrend can't be included.ESTEC 06:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Bethesda's Random name Generator

"During the quest "Breaching Security", the player has to plant an Incriminating Letter on Gaius Maro detailing a plot to assassinate the emperor. In Morrowind, the player has to uncover the Talos Cult Conspiracy, and kill a traitor named Oritius Maro." Todd or some other dev had revealed they use specially designed name generators for the TES series. I don't see how this is a reference to a previous game.

I think its a reference because 2 Imperial officers, one a Legionnaire, and one a Pentius Occulatus agent, both named "Maro", were involed in attempts to kill an emperor. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 19:07, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Another Reference to Morrowind

When you talk to one of members on the Companions (I think it was Vikas). He'll say something like, "By now, I kill one of every thing in Skyrim. I should go to Morrowind and do the same."

This is prolly a reference because "Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind" is the only Elder Scrolls Game, so far, with unique creatures like Nixhounds, Alits, etc that aren't found in any of the other games. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 16:19 on 5 February 2012

I think this is less a reference to the game Morrowind and more a reference to the area of Morrowind. While alits, etc. aren't in Skyrim the game, that's because they don't exist in Skyrim the province. It would be like saying that you've killed one of every thing in the USA, now to go kill one of every thing in China--a location-related thing. Morrowind also isn't the only game with unique creatures; Skeevers are only in Skyrim, boars are only in Oblivion, centaurs are only in Daggerfall, etc. --Velyanthe 16:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I think by unique creatures the anon meant creatures that don't exist in real life or in mythology, bethesda made quite a few creatures from scratch in morrowind (alits, guar, scribs, kwama ect), yet (to my great disappointment in bethesda) most the creatures in oblivion and skyrim exist in real life or in mythology (bears, deer, unicorn, dragons, giants ect) however this doesn't really need a mentioning in the article. (Eddie The Head 02:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC))

Blade of Woe

Does anyone remember the 3 Blades of Woe in Morrowind? Should the Blade of Woe be listed as a Morrowind Reference? (Their might've been 4)

There's a Blade of Woe in Oblivion, but I can't find one in Morrowind. However, in both Oblivion and Skyrim, you get the blade from a member of the Dark Brotherhood... I think there is a relation. --Velyanthe 16:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
That definitely deserves mention. I am surprised it hasn't already been included on the page. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 17:39, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Turns out it was already included: "Near the end of the Dark Brotherhood quest "Death Incarnate", Astrid offers you the Blade of Woe, the blade presented to you by Lucien Lachance with which you are to complete your first contract." I removed that one and kept the more recent one due to the wording being clearer. --Velyanthe 18:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
I haven't had any coffee yet. I must have skimmed the page and missed it. It was wording badly, very easy to accidentally pass over. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 18:15, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible Fable 3 reference

During the companions quest: Glory Of The Dead. In the tomb of Ysgramor, next to the statue of Ysgramor, you can find a broken sword. This sword is broken in the same way that the sword the hero in fable 3 broke during training.

This is clearly no Elder Scrolls reference. You're looking for the Easter Eggs section. --Killfetzer 11:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


Would adding Brand-Shei in the morrowind section be a good idea? Spoiler: He's telvanni after all.

-- 23:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Redguard Sailor reference

Why should this be a reference to the game Redguard? Cyrus wasn't a sailor. Stros M'kai is a city on an island, so sailors should be common place their. --Killfetzer 14:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... I have to side with you on this one. Although, maybe it could stay if it was reworded to be a little better? ESQuestion?EmailContribs 15:03, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Corpus Enchanting

Seems as though it is a reference to the corpus disease from morrowind, should it be added? Vos 04:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I dunno what corpus enchanting is but the disease in Morrowind is Corprus, not corpus (Eddie The Head 08:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC))
Corpus is Latin for body. It has nothing to do with Corprus. --Killfetzer 09:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Whoops, sorry then, My mistake. Vos 19:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Redoran's Retreat

I'm going to assume that the location "Redoran's Retreat" is referring to House Redoran, and thus that it should be included on this page. 09:47, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

There are many references to the Great Houses of Morrowind. Most of them aren't mentioned. Maybe we should make one bullet for all this references. --Killfetzer 10:27, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
I really don't think it's an Egg. The great houses exist in the world and are meant to exist in the world--it's not unheard of for members of the houses to travel to or settle in different provinces. --Velyanthe 15:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
This is a page for historical references of former TES games. There is an extra page for easter eggs. --Killfetzer 22:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
It would be called a historical reference, I believe, if it were there. I just called it an Egg on accident. --Velyanthe 22:40, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
I believe Hlaalu was shot down as a historical reference for being a common Dunmer name, and I saw in the history that Dwemer, Skooma, etc, aren't worth referencing since they are part of the history of the place, so by that precedent, I think that Redoran shouldn't be mentioned as it is an organization. The same argument against saying "EEC was from MW", which is why that one isn't here. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 23:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Combat phrase from oblivion

I've had multiple NPC's from Skyrim shout "This is the part where you fall down and bleed to death" to me during combat. If you've played The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, then you should know that the combat phrase I mentioned was very common when battling hostile NPC's in oblivion. This should be added to the oblivion section on this page. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 21:28 on 24 March 2012

This isn't exactly a historical reference... --Killfetzer 22:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
These sorts of things aren't references, it's just something Bethesda liked and decided to carry into the next game. (Eddie The Head 02:33, 25 March 2012 (UTC))


I just thought of something to counter the whole "Oblivion character is Sheogorath" argument. How did, according to the Shivering Isles and Lore, Sheo come about in the first place? He was cursed by the other Daedra princes, so is it not possible that some point in the 200 years since Oblivion, the same thing happened again? Just because Sheo stated some references to the events of Oblivion doesn't make him the Hero from the game.--Dro'Bakha 11:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

But your character from Oblivion does become Sheogorath so it is possible that the other daedric lords cursed the oblivion character with maddness because they feared him. Either way it doesn't really matter. To be honest the creators of skyrim probably just thought it would be fun to have a direct reference from Oblivion. RIM 12:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Your character gains the title of Madgod, and role of ruler to the Shivering Isles, but it is never actually confirmed that you become Sheogorath. If a person becomes a King, does that make them the previous king just by gaining the rank? Honestly it seems too speculative since no confirmed proof has been given, even if it seems "obvious"(which to me it doesn't).--Dro'Bakha 13:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
If you look at the NPC page, the second paragraph details the things he mentions that almost directly reference the events of Oblivion, regardless of whether or not he is the Hero; "implied" is as far as we should go with that relation. I personally think that that paragraph should be moved to this page instead of the NPC page, since they reference game events and those who have not played the game might not understand them (except the Martin reference). --Velyanthe►Talk►Email 14:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Its still speculation without definite proof. So truthfully it shouldn't state anything of them being the same person. Honestly, unless Bethesda comes out and says "Its the same character" we shouldn't stick things like "It is implied this Sheogorath is the Hero of Kvatch". If just referencing events that happened, technically we could go "The author of 'The Oblivion Crisis' is implied to be the Hero of Kvatch due to their knowledge of events"--Dro'Bakha 15:26, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

() The thing that makes me want to say it's implied is that he says he was present for the entirety of the Oblivion Crisis; the author of that book says that reports vary wildly, and he makes no claim of being there. The Sheo/Jyg thing could have happened before or after the Crisis was over. Yes, it's only speculation, but unless the Hero passed on the mantle of Madgod to someone who was also present through the Crisis and knew about Martin, it's probably the Hero. I think the implication/suggestion should be included but, as on Sheo's page, state that nothing is certain. We have some clues but not all; the only person we know of who could be Sheo is the Hero, and while someone else could be him, we have no leads on who. --Velyanthe►Talk►Email 15:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I still say its more likely Sheo took back his role as Madgod. And even if it is the Hero, it makes no real sense. The Hero only had a few powers from Sheo, like weather control. Best bet would be contact someone from Bethesda and see if they will reveal it.--Dro'Bakha 15:39, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Sheo was gone at that point--by defeating Jyg, the Hero freed him from his transformation into Sheo, so only Jyg was left. The Hero could have easily grown in power, especially if Haskill tried to help him.
I don't think we'll ever find out, though. I think the implication is there just so that players who have played through SI can make the connection ("Hey, that's my character!"). --Velyanthe►Talk►Email 15:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Amaund Motierre

Aside from being an obvious relative of Francois Motierre, there is one more thing. During the Oblivion quest "The Assassinated Man", when Hides-His-Heart learns that there is an 'assassin' from the Dark Brotherhood, he says: "The Dark Brotherhood? Oh, you have been a naughty boy, Motierre, haven't you?" After finding out that he is probably a member, Astrid says something like 'What a naughty, naughty boy" about Amaund, but I don't remember the exact line. Do you think it's a reference or just an accident? — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 13 April 2012

I don't know, but I think it's probably just a coincidence. The similar text isn't unique enough to really seem worth referencing on purpose. It just sort of seems like an obvious thing to say about an assassin or someone about to be assassinated. eshetalk 14:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Kinda late but to me it seems very likely. Francois Motierre said he would flee to another province but i don't think he ever specified which. It's possible he would have fled to skyrim, in which case it's likely that Amaund would be a relative or possibly a decedent of Francois. 20:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Classic Music

Should entries be added, that some bards play the music from Daggerfall and Arena? The Sven page also holds this information. Vos 21:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


Soul Cairn will return from Battlespire in Dawnguard. Worth mentioning?Stranger 01:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

No. That's like saying Morrowind will return in TES: Online--it's true, and it's in another game, but it's just a part of the world. Vely►Talk►Email 01:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning, as I doubt very many people who will play Dawnguard are even aware of Battlespire's existence. Voraxith 02:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
But it's a location in the world. It's not a specific reference to Battlespire, just a separate chance to go to a known realm of Oblivion.
For example, Riften was a city in Arena, was it not? Should we note a reference of that as well? Perhaps more people should voice their opinions, but I really don't think that featuring a known place is that important. Vely►Talk►Email 02:53, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Ok I see your point. If the Ideal Masters return or something more specific we should put that though, right?--Stranger 04:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
No, because they are known to live there. That's like going back to Morrowind in TES: Online and saying there are Dunmer there, as the Ideal Masters live in Soul Cairn, yes?
If, however, there was a reference to a person who was not immortal, or a reference to a questline, then that would be placed on this page. The existence of the place or its inhabitants doesn't make it a reference. Typically, references are small, not large. Vely►Talk►Email 15:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Velyanthe. There may be some references to Battlespire within the Soul Cairn (unlikely), in which case they should be added to the page. The location itself is not a reference, and it all likelihood is probably the very opposite: a retcon. —Legoless 15:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Should Dawnguard's references be mention here?

Should Dawnguard's references, such as Jiub, be mention here? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 18:18 on 5 July 2012

Yes, just post them here first, as Dawnguard is still in the process of being added to the site. The Silencer speaksTalk 18:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
One of the Souls in Cairn, says something like "he said step into painting", I think it's reference to Oblivion's quest A Brush with Death. — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 22 August 2012

I cannot believe this..

I simple cannot believe how Morrowind players had miss the Skullcrusher reference all this time.. I added the reference to list.. The reference is about the Skullcrusher Perk in Skyrim is named after the Skullcrusher warhammer in Morrowind..

Also, why no one talked about Jiub from Dawnguard yet? He is like the #1 best Morrowind reference ever! — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 08:58 on July 9, 2012

I believe Skullcrusher was discussed before and was turned down for being too generic, though I can't seem to find the discussion. As for Jiub, he's not a historical reference. Is it a historical reference that Sheogorath is in Skyrim? No, he simply exists in both, not as a reference but as an integral part of the world. Vely►Talk►Email 19:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I disagree about Jiub, especially considering he was a minor character. A better comparison would be Dervenin's reappearance, instead of Sheogorath's. We noted recurring characters for Oblivion, so I don't see why we shouldn't for Skyrim. —Legoless 19:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I would agree with Vely that the Skullcrusher reference is too generic, so I've removed it for further discussion. ABCface 14:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Oblivion reference?

After returning the dragonstone to Whiterun's cout wizard, Irileth tells you to come talk to the Jarl and a random guard. After hearing the guards story, the Jarl says "go back to the barracks for some food and rest; you've earned it". If I remember correctly, the Arena announcer guy in Oblivion said that after winning a match... same tone and everything. I was surprised nobody mentioned this yet, sorry if I missed it and it's actually there... -- 07:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, the Oblivion Arena quote is "Leave the Arena now and rest; You've earned it!" It's pretty close, but the inflection is different. It's pretty loose if it is. I still want to know what all the Arena references in the CK are about. I've never seen an Arena in Skyrim, but there's data for one. NFITC1 13:28, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
The arena was not implemented in Skyrim.
I think the phrase is too general to be a reference. "Go do this, you've earned it" is pretty common. Vely►Talk►Email 13:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

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