Skyrim talk:Sheogorath

On Sheogorath being the Champion of Cyrodiil

Where does it say that he's a Breton? Is there an official source on this? Shouldn't he be listed as Daedric Prince, or something? Skysky 02:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that, too. I'm pretty sure it was added by RoBot when it created the page, in which case, it comes from the game itself. Minor Edits 02:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

So it's legit? He's really Breton? That's kind of weird. Oh well, thanks. Skysky 03:03, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

like in oblivion they probally use the model of a breton to save on making a whole new race up. only reason he was listed as a new race come shivering isles is they needed to give him the special eyes and make sure no other breton/player would get them.203.219.85.18 06:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Thats makes sense. Thanks! Skysky 02:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

More importantly, why does the page not mention anything about the possibility that this is the player character from Oblivion?59.95.184.15 11:20, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

It does. It says "These statements, coupled with his claim that Sheogorath is a title "passed down from me to me", all suggest he is the Champion of Cyrodiil." I'm sure that was there the whole time, right? Skysky 13:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad.59.95.183.217 16:20, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Sheogorath also has virtually an identical appearance to the default player character model in Oblivion. Same hair, same facial structure. --Dorsal Axe 15:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Could you post a side-by-side pic? Not that I don't believe you; I just want to see it.

All of this seems rather odd reasoning.

For instance, isn't it just as likely that Jyggalag turned back into Sheogorath, and spews the same old nonsense as a result (and in part as a gimmick: just a nod to his appearance in the Shivering Isles DLC)? This would make sense, as this shape shifting has occurred before: the Greymarch occurs at the end of every era, and Sheogorath always seems to return when that period of ordering the Isles is over.

Secondly, the specific statement that the madgod passes his title/position on to himself only makes sense if he is indeed the same figure he always has been: the Daedric prince with the split personality. I don't see how the Champion of Cyrodiil could refer to the previous Sheogorath as "myself", as the Champion's task is to sit on Sheogorath's throne, to prevent Jyggalag from taking over, to end the Greymarch and to send Jyggalag back to wherever he came from. Jyggalag is particularly vague about whether the Champion has indeed become a god. In addition, there's nothing to indicate that the Champion has replaced the person Sheogorath in some physical sense, rather, Sheogorath has changed into Jyggalag and the Champion has temporarily taken over the station of ruler (king, if you go by Jyggalag's words) of the Isles.

And the argument about his facial appearance being similar to the default face in Oblivion seems contrived. If Bethesda put any effort into reconstructing any face, wouldn't it be much more likely that they'd attempt to reconstruct Sheogorath's face, instead of the default Breton (or Imperial, that's what was meant above) face, which has no specific ties to the SI DLC? Then there are obvious stylistic and technological differences between the faces in Oblivion and Skyrim, so that Sheogorath's face looks different is to be expected (just as Sheogorath's appearance changed in games before Oblivion). Consider also the comment by 203.219.85.18 above.

It seems to me that people are looking for connections where there are none, or already seeing such connections and grasping anything that looks like an argument to support these views. The only thing that can be said conclusively is that Sheogorath appears in this game, and is very similar in appearance to previous games.

I'm in favor of removing this speculation about Sheogorath as portrayed in Skyrim being the Champion of Cyrodiil from the main page, perhaps leaving a reference to the talk page, but no more. --188.203.162.222 00:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me you are looking to cast on doubt the veracity of connections that clearly exist. It isn't "just as likely" that Jyggalag reverted back into Sheogorath, because there's no evidence of this happening or reason to think this happened. That is speculation. What is not speculation is that the game intentionally leaves players with the impression that this Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyrodiil. There's no other explanation for his strange dialogue. While you may doubt this conclusion and for some reason feel strongly about it, the vast majority of people who are familiar with Sheogorath's references to Oblivion seem to believe otherwise. If the comments acknowledging this connection to Oblivion and Sheogorath's history are removed, they will just be quickly replaced with similar comments, except they will be misspelled and probably added to the wrong space on the page. Minor Edits 01:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am looking to cast doubt on exactly this. If you actually read the Greymarch page, you'll find the shape shifting has occurred before (though, granted, the exact events at other Greymarches are not portrayed or described in any form). As for other explanations not existing: I've just given an alternate explanation. And finally, I haven't made this change to the page because I'm aware that my view seems to be a controversial one, so an edit would probably have the effect you described. --188.203.162.222 01:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

All this makes me feel somewhat like a Zealot among Heretics. :) --188.203.162.222 01:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm familiar with Jyggalag's story, and you're missing my point. The page does not say that the Sheogorath of Skyrim is the Champion of Cyrodiil. It says that Sheogorath's statements suggest this is the case. You're arguing about whether or not this suggestion is actually true, but to achieve your goal, you must disprove that the suggestion itself is there. And I don't think you have any arguments capable of doing that. Minor Edits 01:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I am arguing that this suggestion isn't there as such, but that this suggestion is merely one possible interpretation of the information presented. It's the wording on this page that suggests this, while the available information does not. The wording "all suggest he is the Champion of Cyrodiil" seems to favor this possibility, simply by hinting at it solely and explicitly. I think it's better to hold back because there is no proof (or what would go for proof in a fictional universe) of a transformation or replacement, and the current wording doesn't sufficiently address or reflect that.

What's missing in this matter is an answer to the question of whether the Champion has actually become Sheogorath, or merely kept his throne warm to keep Jyggalag from taking over. The simple fact that, in this game, Sheogorath is shown to have knowledge of past events, and a general awareness of the world outside his plane of Oblivion, does not even come close to being substantial enough to lead to the conclusion that Sheogorath now is the Champion, and certainly not to the exclusion of other possibilities. In my first post about this, I aimed to show that with the information presented, one would not necessarily come to this conclusion. This makes the majority view appear to be favored, not for the evidence or arguments used to back it up such that other possibilities can be ruled out, but simply by virtue of being the majority view.

If I were to change this statement (and I'm not), I'd change it to something along these lines: 'Whether these references to Oblivion and its Shivering Isles expansion mean that Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyrodiil is unclear.' This would be sufficient to refer the reader to information about previous appearances and to indicate that the events of SI might have implications for the nature of the madgod, while being careful enough to indicate that this is not the one and only view, but merely a possible interpretation of what is ostensibly merely a collection of historical references, with no conclusive information that a transformation has taken place.

My view is that the wording "all suggest he is the Champion of Cyrodiil" is unnecessarily biased towards this majority view by suggesting too strongly that Sheogorath is the Champion, and that a more conservative wording would be an improvement. --188.203.162.222 04:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It's more than just one possible interpretation, it is by far the most likely interpretation. There are good reasons why the minority view here is the minority, and the article's language should reflect that. It comes up in lore most often, but in any namespace, we presume the validity of events from previous games- unless and until we get an unambiguous retcon, game events are canon. In this case, that the Champion of Cyrodiil became Madgod of the Shivering Isles, and was treated as Sheogorath for all intents and purposes, is canon. That is the last information we got on the matter before Skyrim, and it would be inappropriate to speculate on any intervening events since then.

You no doubt recognize that a significant amount of the information about the game world we get from Bethesda can be altered, added to, and/or clarified as they see fit in each new TES media. In-game authors and NPCs can turn out to be wrong, new places and things can be discovered, cultures are fleshed out with new traditions and holidays, etc. It means that practically everything is up for grabs, and that most of the things we state as fact on the site about the game's reality are really just the most likely conclusion given the information as it is presented. So oftentimes, we're not stating facts, but merely the impressions the great majority of us are being left with. My point is, we will eventually get closure on the aftermath of the Shivering Isles expansion; knowing that, we should state what we're being led to believe at the moment.

Sheogorath's dialogue mirrors the experiences of the Champion of Cyrodiil, most notably is his reference to "a Fox", which is believed to be a reference to the Gray Fox. While all the other references could hypothetically be attributed to both the Champion and the Sheogorath entity of Oblivion (they could both "remember" such experiences from the Oblivion Crisis as there was involvement by both in the referenced events), of the two, only the Champion had dealings with the Gray Fox during Oblivion (although come to think of it, I don't think Sheogorath from Oblivion was involved any way with a severed head or Martin Septim, either). This greatly marginalizes the notion that it is someone or something other than the Champion sitting at that table in Skyrim. More than anything else, this removes any doubt in my mind about what Bethesda intended for players to take away from this exchange. The article holds open appropriate room for doubt, and readers should be able to recognize that. The suggestion exists, so in my view, your proffered revision does the reader a disservice, as it deprives them of the conclusion that the great weight of the evidence points to, leaving them with nothing but explicit ambiguity. But if you insist, I'm think we can compromise with a simple prefatory phrase:

"While nothing can be stated with certainty, these comments, coupled with Sheogorath's remark that his name is a title 'passed down from me to me', suggest that he is the Champion of Cyrodiil."

Bueno? Minor Edits 06:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this clarification.

I was arguing two separate things: my own view of events portrayed and information provided being insufficient to reach the presented - or indeed, any - conclusion, as well as the need to indicate clearly that until Bethesda officially and unambiguously announces that this version is correct, it remains speculation.

This case is very similar to the one of the Dragon Break, and various others. There's not enough information from which to draw conclusions as to the truth of the matter, and most information that does exist is ambiguous or even contradictory. As long as there is such a lack of reliable information, I'll refuse to settle on one best possible explanation and will consider any concrete explanations possibly reasonable, though based on incomplete evidence, so effectively useless. However, I agree that - in part because this entire universe is fictional, subject to change and presumably intentionally messy - for the purposes of this wiki it's probably best to refrain from too much speculation and leave it at a simple, but noticeably conditional, mention of this majority view, to stimulate the reader's thinking organ.

So I will accept your compromise. With the addition of this preface, or a suitable equivalent modification, I will consider my axe buried and this case closed. --188.203.162.222 07:36, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a major logical leap to conclude that Sheo is the CoC. The conversation merely suggests that the player was the Champion of the Shivering Isles, not specifically that the player was the CoC (or the Grey Fox). This is an important difference.

I would suggest "While nothing can be stated with certainty, these comments, coupled with Sheogorath's remark that his name is a title 'passed down from me to me', suggest that he is the Champion of the Shivering Isles. 78.128.199.156 15:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC) Proweler

Made the change. I'll see what happens. 78.128.199.156 15:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)Proweler

No, it is NOT possible that Jyggalag might have turned back into Sheogorath. That would imply that the curse was still in effect. The curse in question causes Jyggalag to transform back into Sheogorath at the beginning of the next era, which technically began the moment the Oblivion Crisis ended. If the curse WAS still present, wouldn't Jyggalag have turned back into Sheogorath and continued his duties as Prince of Madness the EXACT moment the Champion of Cyrodiil defeated him at the end of the Greymarch? Plus, it would have rendered those last few quests completely pointless, now wouldn't it?

Can't we all just accept the fact that Jyggalag and Sheogorath are now two seperate entities? If Tiber Septim could become a Divine, then surely the Champion of Cyrodiil can become a Daedric Prince. After all, this wouldn't be the first time that a non-Daedric entity became a Daedric Lord. 72.135.192.116 18:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems a bit odd that the Champion would speak with the voice of the original Sheogorath. Is it a badge of office like the staff and the clown suit, or is he "doing the Sheogorath"? --Kotekzot 10:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably the latter, but likely a mixture of both: The exaggerated accent is probably a trademark of the Prince of Madness, and the Champion of Cyrodiil just so happens to have the ability to do a spot-on impression of his predecessor's voice and accent. It probably helps that (considering that the Champion of Cyrodiil, by default, is/was an Imperial male named Bendu Olo) the two of them had the same voice actor in both Oblivion and Skyrim. Bauglir100 12:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jyggalag explicitely state that you have ended the cycle of the Greymarch at the end of the Shivering Isles questline? Which would mean that, although whether or not the present Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyrodiil cannot be confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt, he certainly isn't the Sheogorath of previous games? Which would be enough for me personally to believe that the Champion of Cyrodiil grew into his position, and took on the voice, the features, and the madness of his predecessor.69.244.28.254 00:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that the person who said that Sheogorath in Skyrim is not The Champion of Cyrodill needs to get their facts straight. True, Jyggalag's final words to the Champion of Cyrodill upon being defeated are mysterious, but the curse that caused Jyggalag to transform into Sheogorath every thousand years was lifted upon his defeat, "The cycle is ended" as he put it. Therefore, it would be only logical to conclude that the Sheogorath that appears in Skyrim is the Champion of Cyrodill. And even if your argument that Sheogorath is not the Champion is true, there is one important fact you fail to realize. The Greymarch occured every 1,000 years, and the events of Skyrim occur only 200 years after the events of Oblivion. Once again, it is most likely that the Sheogorath that appears in Skyrim is The Champion of Cyrodill. The next time you wish to write paragraphs arguing a topic you don't fully understand; I would suggest that you become a bit more familiar with what is factual and what is conjecture, before you make such an opinionated argument. 72.68.154.112 04:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to hop in and say perhaps every thousand of years (the current) sheogorath must find someone to kill jyggalag otherwise jyggalag would remain? So that the name "sheogorath" isn't one person but many many people (kind of a reference to his personality if you didn't get it :P). I know the convos old but it's an interesting point 222.92.143.154 17:12, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

If you finish the main quest in "Shivering Isles," everyone in the Isles calls you Sheogorath, even ghosts who knew a completely different being as the Prince. They even act as if you should know what your predecessor did to them, going so far as to accuse you of gloating. That's right--everyone in the Isles perceives you as Sheogorath, no matter what you look like. What does this mean? Our hero likely developed all of Sheogorath's powers, in the intervening centuries, including his ability to take on any appearance that he felt like. And what appearance should he take? Why, the one that his predecessor took for thousands of years. Besides, there's another reason that this is clearly a different Sheogorath than the guy from the previous games. The new Sheogorath wants you to help Pelagius III. His predecessor wanted people dead. This kinder, gentler, Sheogorath is you. Black jack king (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2013 (GMT)

sheogoraths clothes?

anyone know what the name of his clothes are/ hexcode is or short of using console commands on the pc if it is possible to obtain a set? i know its a weird question to ask but i am sure fellow shivering isles fans would want to walk around as a god again.

They're under Unique Apparel MadocComadrin 18:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Why a skyrim page?

Shouldn't all this info (not all) be added to the lore page under events in Skyrim?--68.109.194.141 12:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Because he appears as an NPC in Skyrim and the info is pertinent to his appearance in Skyrim. Aresvallis 16:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Doing the Fishstick!

In this article, it says "In a non-triggered line of dialogue, Sheogorath says...". This is not non-triggered, i've heard him say it repeatedly yesterday when i was jumping around him trying to find something interesting to do with him. --Bonabopn 00:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I think 'untriggered' in this case means not directly interacting with him. He says it independently of the characters actions.--82.14.67.46 10:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it possible that 'doing the fishstick' is a reference to the dance called 'the fishstick' created by the comedy podcast You Look Nice Today? 137.22.4.78 20:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible? Yes. Probable? Not at all. --Kotekzot 09:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Sheogorath says 'Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!' on PS3, can someone confirm on another PC or Xbox, before editing main page.--The Silencer 23:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed in the CK. For more background on it, see Fishy Stick. – Robin Hood↝talk 05:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

help

how do u make npcs like sheogorath, sanguine and those flash back ghosts like in labyrinthian be attackable using console cmd — Unsigned comment by 121.54.46.88 (talk) at 00:46 on 16 May 2012

I can't answer your actual question for sure, but check out this page to see if the information is already there (if you scroll down to where the first column says something like 'setessential...' that may be what you're looking for, but I'm not sure). Otherwise, that talk page might be a more relevant place to ask your question. ABCface^◥ 03:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Sheogorath Champion of the Shivering Isles

There has been no discussion since May, so I am assuming the defacto outcome of the debate is to suggest that Sheogorath is the is the Champion of Cyrodiil. I'll reiterate the point I added to that discussion here to make it stand out more clearly.

It is a major leap to conclude that Sheo is the CoC based on "passed down from me to me". This statement only suggests that the player was the Champion of the Shivering Isles, it suggests that Sheogorath was a mortal. The other items mentioned are not connected to this by any sort of logical connection. They are the ramblings of a mad god.

So I would suggest the following: "While nothing can be stated with certainty, these comments, coupled with his remark that Sheogorath is a title "passed down from me to me", suggest he is the Champion of the Shivering Isles".

Though if you are to conclude that Sheo is the CoC based on the reference to Martin, then you'd also have to conclude that the player Grey Fox, and the Listener of the Black Hand by the same logic. So I'd also agree on "While nothing can be stated with certainty, these comments, coupled with his remark that Sheogorath is a title "passed down from me to me", suggest he is the Champion of Cyrodiil, Champion of the Shivering Isles, the Grey Fox and Listener of the Black Hand".

78.128.199.156 15:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC) Proweler

Per your recent edits to the page, check out Lore:Hero:

The Hero of Oblivion (better known as the Hero of Kvatch, Savior of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil, Divine Crusader, or Madgod of the Shivering Isles)

Released by chance from prison in the Imperial City, this hero's tale began as a courier for Uriel VII and ended in the salvation of all Tamriel from the forces of Mehrunes Dagon. The hero saved Tamriel again by reuniting the Relics of the Divine Crusader, defeating Umaril the Unfeathered, and even visited Sheogorath's realm of insanity to battle the daedric prince and end an eons-long cycle of order and chaos, becoming the new Sheogorath, Prince of Madness.

I'm pretty sure we're assuming, for all heroes, that any game's expansions feature the same hero as the base game, because that's how they were set up, and main quests, in our lore, are not optional for the player (the CoC must escape from prison, for example), whereas faction quests are (the Fox need not have escaped from the Imperial Prison). In that case, the CoC must be the CotSI, but need not be the Fox, etc. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 16:12, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I really don't wish to discuss the validity of that assumption. It will work when writing the storylines. But it is not a requirement in game to become the Coc to start the SI. So for interpreting what Sheogorath is saying it is not relevant.

My point is that you can not cherry-pick one reference from his dialogue and to say that we was the CoC in this article (outside of the assumption that he was), but ignore all the other references, even though they are optional.

But perhaps we should describe it for what it is? An Easter Egg / call back / shoutout to the previous game rather then a matter of fact? 78.128.199.156 18:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC) Proweler

It's not described as a "matter of fact", it is described as a possibility. The list of things he mentions may or may not be related to the events in Oblivion, whereas the fact that he speaks of Martin as if he knew him has a lot stronger connection than a list of items.

It is not a requirement of the game to become the CoC, but for our timeline purposes, I believe this site assumes that the main questline from each expansion involves the hero of the base game. I may be incorrect, but the Lore:Hero page shows that, at least. In that case, the CoC is the CotSI, and the two could be used interchangeably. In Sheo's dialogue, he references events that the CoC would have experienced, so by the topic, CoC seems more appropriate. After all, if the CotSI didn't meet Martin as the CoC, why would he even mention him with an opinion? Vely^{►Talk►Email} 19:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

He never actually speaks of Martin as if knowing him. He merely states "Your the best septim ever, well except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon and that's hardly sporting" which implies he simply knows what Martin did but nothing about him. If he was the CoC he would have known Martin, and not used the "That Martin fellow" line as that is not something you'd use if you know someone to that regard.--Dro'Bakha 15:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

*sigh* This really is just arguing for the sake of arguing (and making yourself sound big to people you'll never meet). Occam's Razor, people? Sometimes developer intent IS clear. 144.132.103.189 11:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

May I? For one, you're taking something a lunatic said at face value. Second, mythology is littered with gods of Order and Chaos, beings who went crazy with the responsibility of being the Divine Scheduler of the Universe. They assume new identities as gods of chaos (or, if you will, the Madgod), which is fine with everyone else for a considerable length of time. But then the time comes when the old form is needed, when the schedule needs resetting or it's their appointed time to be at the center of the wheel of fate. A hero embarks on a quest, the god is transformed, and he performs his duties in the nick of time. He decides going crazy wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and he inevitably will return to insanity... but he gets a little vacation from it, thanks to the hero. Knowing that, it seems likely Sheo just got a break from being himself for a while. Third, Daedra means "not ours", I think. Gods (Aedra) and the mortals of Tamriel are all the same stuff, so to speak, so Tiber Septim ascending to godhead is possible. He became a focus of belief in his lifetime, and so became a god when he died. But Daedra aren't of this world. They can interact, they can put little bits of their power into trinkets for mortal champions to carry, they can recruit followers. But they can't exist in Tamriel without a MAJOR effort to shatter the walls between the worlds. It doesn't seem likely that whatever makes a Daedra what it is is compatible in many ways with the reality of Tamriel, and thus, the reverse is probably true. That which is of Tamriel (Aedra) is probably incompatible with that which is Daedra A new mortal vessel would shatter on becoming Daedra. Which lines up neatly with my next point... it's a little naive, I feel, to assume Sheogorath (or Jyggawhosits) WASN'T paying attention to what his fellow Daedra was up to during the Oblivion crisis. Either he was worried Mehrunes Dagon was going to eat all his playthings, or he was excited to get to play with them directly, but the sundering of the wall between the worlds (and the subsequent events that resulted in Martin turning in to a dragon) would probably attract even Sheogorath's attention. I suspect he'd be against MD running around in Tamriel, and might be inclined to think of Martin as the best Septim consequently (perhaps even for a host of other reasons), but it's just speculation. Finally, there's nothing I can remember stating Daedra are linear beings. Perhaps after interacting with the CoC, Sheo took a little time off the watch the events of his life unfold close up? 76.187.145.105 05:58, 28 September 2012 (GMT)

It may seem clear to you, but it's not unambiguously so. And that's all the wiggle room some people need.

I can think of a couple of reasons why people may not want to believe that the CoC is (the new) Sheogorath; there are probably others. They may not believe it possible for a mortal to become a Daedra; never mind that, as noted above, Tiber Septim and the Tribunal managed something similar. Others may simply not like the idea that their Hero, their beloved player character, went through all of that only to lose his/her entire identity to the Madgod - consumed by the mantle of Sheogorath, if you will. -- Unregistered Lurker 17:43, 16 Jul 2012 (UTC)

(←) Assuming that Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyrodiil, would that make the latter a Breton male? I know that Daedra Princes can change form and all, but technically would that confirm the identity of Oblivion's PC? Elakyn 20:24, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

"passed down from me to me"

I don't think this quote is very good evidence that Sheogorath is the former Champion of Cyrodil. He says it's passed from him to him "every couple of centuries or so". The Greymarch occurs every couple of centuries, and Sheogorath turns into the enemy, destroys Sheogorath's realm, and turns back into Sheogorath, who rebuilds his empire anew. He was sort of "passing it down" to himself. However, I do agree that the other quote about the Fox and cheese and everything is a good quote, especially since Sheogorath says that he had been around at that time. So, point being solely that the first quote doesn't seem like good evidence, at least in my opinion. 98.217.230.157 02:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

But after the last greymarch who became the new Sheogorath? The champion of Cyrodil--82.46.168.98 07:56, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Reference to Antoinetta?

When I spoke to Sheogorath and he asked me if I knew who I was dealing with, I simply replied with the option "you're a madman." He then went into a rant befitting of the Mad God and said "call me Ann Marie." Could this be considered a reference to Antoinetta Marie? Schiffy (talk) 01:27, 23 September 2012 (GMT)

You may want to put your idea on the Historical References page. But put your idea on the talk page first.--Skyrimplayer (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2012 (GMT)

I would have to disagree. Antoinetta isn't a "mad" person as Sheogorath is and seemingly has a "Rosie" dissposition. I really don't see the link besides the name.--FubarFrank (talk) 01:51, 23 September 2012 (GMT)

I'm not trying to claim that Sheogorath is actually Antoinetta. My assumption is simply that he was making a reference to one of his former colleagues, since he is supposedly the Champion of Cyrodiil, and by extension, the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood at the end of the Third Era. Schiffy (talk) 17:03, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

What's actually is the Ann Marie reference? any theory? --210.209.163.92 10:02, 31 July 2013 (GMT)

About the Quest-Related Events

The Quest-Related events section seems very like a walkthrough for the quest. Surely this should be on the quest's page, not on sheogorath's page? — Unsigned comment by Savos (talk • contribs) at 10:11 on 7 August 2013

Since Sheo is so much interwoven with this one quest, I think it's fine. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 11:12, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

Sheogorath IS the Champion of Cyrodiil.

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up, but a couple years back at MAGFest X, Wes Johnson himself stated that the Sheogorath in this game and the Champion of Cyrodiil from Oblivion are one and the same. He also said that (s)he uses the Wabbajack to change his/her physical appearance, which includes allowing him/her to assume the form of the original incarnation of Sheogorath, so that means that the Champion of Cyrodiil's true race and gender are still ambiguous, so all you Oblivion fanboys/fangirls have nothing to worry about.

So can we please update this article and get rid of that "Although nothing can be said for certain" part in the "Notes section"? I mean, why deny it, anyway? Because it would ruin the determined fate of a player's particular character to know they ended up a Daedric Prince? Well, the Nerevarine (The hero from Morrowind) canonically traveled to Akavir and was never heard from again (even two hundred years later in Skyrim), and the Hero of Daggerfall had canonically perished during the Warp of the West, so who can deny that the Champion of Cyrodiil canonically became a Daedric Prince? It wouldn't be the only over-the-top thing they ever did in that game.

Bauglir100 (talk) 22:12, 8 December 2014 (GMT)

The article is correct in stating that nothing can be said for certain. Unlike the Warp in the West and the Akavir rumours, no one ever comes right out and says that this dude is the CoC. Wes Johnson is not really a reliable source when it comes to canonical lore (especially that Wabbajack part). —Legoless (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2014 (GMT)

What do you want me to do, go up to Bethesda and demand an answer from them? Sheogorath pretty much says that he was around for the whole Oblivion Crisis, yet the original Sheogorath was too busy dealing with the Greymarch in his own realm to give a hoot about what was happening in Tamriel (apart from messing with Border Watch, anyway), and references multiple questlines from Oblivion, including the fact that Martin Septim turned into a dragon. Even if Sheogorath didn't find out about that transformation until later, the fact that he knew Martin (who didn't even know he himself was a Septim until a few days/weeks before he "died") enough to call him one of his favorite Septims should definitely clue one in on his identity.

Why does the idea that this one protagonist happened to ascend to godhood sound any more unusual than what happened to any of the other protagonists, or what happened with Tiber and Martin Septim? If this information was based on some vague comment/rumor brought up by M'aiq the Liar or some other minor NPC, or if lying was something Sheogorath was always known for (which it isn't; he's the "Prince of Madness", not the "Prince of Liars") I'd understand the disbelief, but this nigh-universal uncertainty over Sheogorath's identity is totally irrational, even by the way this site's articles are meant to be written. And this is coming from a guy who loves the way they're written. Bauglir100 (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2014 (GMT)

It doesn't matter what seems obvious to you. It is never stated in-game that they are one and the same. You don't know that Sheogorath wasn't also keeping tables on what was happening in Tamriel. He's a Daedric Prince... It isn't like he has to have a singular attention like humans do, and other Daedric Princes knew who Martin was long before the player knew. Maybe they all knew. The point is, we don't put this kind of speculation on the wiki. There is absolutely no way to know for sure unless Bethesda decides to settle the matter officially, which is unlikely. Unless you can point to a specific line where Sheogorath or another character mentions him being the Champion of Cyrodiil, we simply can't put it on the wiki. There is nothing wrong with having something remain uncertain like this. Jeancey (talk) 03:19, 9 December 2014 (GMT)

It's not speculation, I'm basing this entirely off dialogue in the game, and the fact that the Shivering Isles questline ends with the Champion of Cyrodiil becoming the new Sheogorath, Prince of Madness. Your belief that all the Daedric Princes knew exactly who Martin was? That is speculation. It's possible that even Mehrunes Dagon didn't know that Martin was Uriel's heir. For all we know, only the Mythic Dawn did, since they're the ones that opened that Oblivion Gate outside Kvatch. Otherwise, I'd expect Mehrunes Dagon to not waste time and just send an elite squad of Dremora through first to kill Martin at the Chapel instead of just letting loose an unorganized rabble of Daedra to senselessly burn Kvatch to the ground (although I think they'd still do the latter just to celebrate the former).

But of course, that's only speculation. But Sheogorath's lines don't just reference what the Champion of Cyrodiil did, they also imply he is the Champion of Cyrodiil. How else would he reference the severed head and the fox, or why would he say that the title of Madgod was "passed from me to me" if he was still the original Sheogorath? And what sounds more likely, that if this isn't the original Sheogorath, that it was instead the Champion of Cyrodiil, or some other guy that inherited the title from the Champion of Cyrodiil, even if there's no indication or evidence that the Champion got replaced? Bauglir100 (talk) 04:51, 9 December 2014 (GMT)

I'm not saying that's what I think, I'm saying that is another entirely plausible explanation for why he knew who Martin was. Of course it is speculation, which is why it isn't in the article. It is as much speculation as saying he knew because he was the Champion of Cyrodiil. You are inferring things that aren't in the actual dialogue. If you looked at it from the perspective of someone who didn't know anything about the oblivion except the general plot points, they wouldn't make the connection. You only come to the conclusion because you know the full story from an "outside the world" perspective. Also, I don't understand why you think a Daedric Prince wouldn't know things that mortals did. Why wouldn't he know about the Grey Fox, or the severed head. All of those things involved Daedric Princes to some extent, maybe they complain about mortals to each other at the Daedric Prince high school reunions.

I guess my point is that you have decided that they are one and the same and thus you can't separate that assumption from the dialogue. You can't "unsee" it, as it were. It is simply only one interpretation of the text and there isn't any solid evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, for lack of a better term. Jeancey (talk) 07:48, 9 December 2014 (GMT)

All right, I guess we can avoid a definite answer until we get more information from someone other than Wes Johnson about Sheogorath's identity. Still I think I'll rephrase the note on the page, since it seems a little off to me. Not to change it completely, but to make its neutrality/ambiguity seem less forced. If nobody minds, that is. Bauglir100 (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2014 (GMT)

Bauglir's most recent edit sorts of upset the flow a bit but it manages to make the passage even more neutral than before. Ironically, the one before that seems to imply more strongly that Sheogorath has indeed passed his mantle down to the Champion of Cyrodiil, if we're talking about forced (towards) neutrality. But it might just be me. But personally, it's plenty of neutral enough and Kenny's streamlined version is the better option. Enodia (talk) 05:52, 10 December 2014 (GMT)

(←) I agree that the previous version was more pleasing than the altered version, thus my revert to it. When we originally had these arguments after the game's release I made some major efforts to make sure any mention to this event did not outright state the COC was Sheogorath, due to the lack of a straight confirmation, but did not beat around the bush by saying things like "but this is not clear". I don't get why people feel a need to complicate such a simple statement. Like in the current version, the word "may" conveys the exact same message that the twenty or so words used two versions ago tried to. The developers clearly intended to hint with a wink and nudge that Sheogorath was the COC, so just saying he may have been the COC based on these comments in the cleanest way to do this. Keep it simple. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 05:47, 10 December 2014 (GMT)

Actually, those twenty or so words were what I was so riled up about. Thanks for getting rid of them. Now I'm fine with how it is. Bauglir100 (talk) 07:22, 10 December 2014 (GMT)