UESPWiki:Archive/CP Content Policy

This is an archive of past UESPWiki:Community Portal discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Content Policy

It has recently come to my attention that the official forums have updated their Adult/Mature Content rules. Now, on the surface, this does appear to interfere with our site, but according to the new rules:

Q: Can I link to the website for a mod with adult content, or to the mod itself, as long as that site doesn’t have any pictures? What if I include a disclaimer in my post?

A: In all of these cases the answer is no. It's not acceptable to simply include a disclaimer in your post, and even if that site doesn’t have pictures you still can’t link to it. We don’t like this sort of content as it creates problems for us, so you’ll have to be a little forgiving when dealing with our rules. If you have a question about what percentage of a site can contain these kinds of mods, there’s a good chance you’re going to have a problem with it.

Since our website includes references to such mods as Morrowind's Better Bodies, it seems that this rule does apply to us, and we need have some type of disclaimer page before entering the site from the Official Forums, which I imagine we get quite a bit of traffic from with their help sections. I've talked to at least one of the mods (Summer) over there who said, "I think it may need a disclaimer page. We are still waiting to see if it can be arranged for there to be a host page from here. I will bring up Wiki Ratwar as it is linked constantly in the spoilers section and it does have links there to Psychodogs and BB's. I will get clarification on that as we may need to use a disclaimer page when linking there."

Obviously, both parties want to make sure that the UESP is accessible to the official forums, so does anyone have any thoughts on this?--Ratwar 21:59, 23 February 2007 (EST)

This isn't a personal criticism, Ratwar, but when it comes to legal BS, the correct thing to not take the initiative. If you don't ask, they don't have to stay "No" or "You have to change it." By asking, it means that they have to go to their lawyers and say "What about UESP?" At which point the lawyers have to say "No." So, if you don't ask they don't have to say. Going forward I would suggest that we do nothing until they lodge as specific complaint.

Second note. If you'll follow the (very long and tedious discussion), there's the legal rule and there's what they say they will enforce, which are totally different things. If you follow the logic of the rule that they state at the beginning "Can't link to websites.. etc.", then clearly linking to most major ES websites would be forbidden. (In fact, even more ridiculously, you wouldn't be able to link to the ESF forum or to the main Oblivion website because it has been rated "Mature".)

What they say they will enforce is much milder -- and also massively undefined. My read on this is that Bethesda doesn't want to clarify it -- because the more they clarify it, the more they have to say "No", and the more they antagonize modders, and cause major modding sites to become unlinked to. And Bethesda isn't stupid, the truth is that all of those websites (including UESP) help keep their games on shelves selling. (And Morrowind, a 4-5 year old game on the PC is still selling on store shelves -- that's amazing in the PC world -- and is largely due to the presence of mods.) So, again, they don't want to place restrictions on us -- if we don't ask, we won't force them to.

Third note. The most annoying thing that struck me when reading through the discussion last night is that we're probably already covered by their rules! (Grrr. So much for a principled stand!) The Better Bodies page:

• Already states says that Better Bodies portrays realistic nude human (and elf and orc) bodies. For those who would prefer it, a permanent underwear version is available for all races. I.e., there's already a disclaimer.
• Contains no direct links to nude screenshots, or even screenshots of risque armor.
• In fact, one of the posting guideliness for the page is: If the armor is adult rated (e.g., some of Cenobite's armor), then out of common courtesy to those who might be offended: 1) Don't add a link to an r-rated screenshot. 2) Do add a warning in the description."

So for now, I would say:

• Quit taking the initiative. Let Bethesda take the initiative and lodge a complaint with us if they like. They have a very long term relationship with Dave and will certainly do this if they feel the need.
• If they make a more specific request, point out that the page already meets the standards that they've set out.
• If that's not enough, then we should see what they request and then debate that request here.

Final note: I know that the many/most contributors here have a pretty obsessive mindset -- and the natural inclination of that mindset is to seek clarification when faced with ambiguity. But in the legal world, shadows, greyness and vagueness are often desirable (kind of like playing a thief). If you force them to shine more light into that area, you'll most likely force them to say things that both they and we (as the modding/mod playing community) don't want them to say. --Wrye 23:14, 23 February 2007 (EST)

I have to agree with Wrye here, best to not worry about legal stuff unless your a trained lawyer, if Beth's lawyers have an issue we will be told about it, otherwise any changes made may well do more harm than good. Jadrax 12:50, 24 February 2007 (EST)

Just as an appendum...Bethesda is well aware of the UESP and I get the occasional notice to take down certain copyrighted materials (like map/manual scans). If there was something on this site that they felt wasn't appropriate I'd be sure to hear about it. -- Daveh 15:47, 2 March 2007 (EST)