User talk:Nephele/Archive-2011-12

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This is an archive of past User talk:Nephele discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

NPC Summary and trainers[edit]

Somehow the change seems to have broken the infobox for trainers like Skyrim:Dravynea the Stoneweaver. --Alfwyn 19:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the problem. I've fixed it, and also restored the proper race colors. --NepheleTalk 19:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Red Links[edit]

It's rather hard to keep track of recent changes at the moment, so in case you missed it, your opinion is wanted on this discussion. If you get a chance, please say your piece. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-Easter Eggs?[edit]

Would you mind me asking why you re-deleted the "Notched pickaxe" reference? Your edit summary said it was a "non-Easter Egg", but the only reason I re-added it was because here, three editors decided that it was a reference. I'd appreciate some clarification. Thanks. Kitkat TalkContribE-mail 09:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It didn't sound like an easter egg to me, especially because the wording made it sound like the poster wasn't even certain about it. But the real reason I undid it was because the original poster was the one who deleted it, making it seem like there'd been a change of mind. Feel free to reinstate it. I should probably just stop even trying to patrol the easter eggs page because my idea of what constitutes an easter egg is clearly completely different from everyone else's. --NepheleTalk 16:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the easter egg page is substantially over-inclusive right now. Probably 25% of the notes currently on there should probably go. But being over-inclusive seems to be a practical necessity at this stage, as many of the entries haven't been thoroughly vetted. And since the page is not semi-protected and anyone may add what they wish, in some cases all that would happen is that we would be removing notes and quickly have new, poorly spelled and less accurate notes put in about the same thing. There are a dozen little edit wars just waiting to pop up if we start chopping right now. Minor Edits 18:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Some Miscellaneous Quests Missing[edit]

I'm not sure how you ran through them, but you did a good job. There seem to be some missing and wasn't sure if you missed a few in your methodology. Two I can point out directly are:

  • Riften - Strange Occurrences in Largashbur (not sure on right working, something similar) - I want to say I got it from a guard but it may have been an innkeepr. It was a pointer objective like Skyrim:Visit the museum in Dawnstar to the main daedric quest Skyrim:The Cursed Tribe. I noticed that for this one it was actually built into the main quest objectives rather than separately.
  • Southfringe Sanctum. Skyrim:Help Selveni Nethri escape the cave. Albeit this one appears to be part of a bugged or unfinished sequence. The objective initiator mentions an encounter in Riften as if the player had seen it (ala the style of the execution in Solitude). She says she will thank you if she sees you again after she finds her child...I haven't found her yet.

--Bwross 12:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The first one is simply part of the quest The Cursed Tribe; it's just the objective that you receive at stage 10 of the quest. I didn't create redirects for objectives that are clearly part of a "real" quest, because I'm assuming that they always appear in your journal under that quest (i.e., it's not in the long list under "Miscellaneous"; instead there's a separate entry on the left of your screen for "The Cursed Tribe", and the objective only appears when you click on that quest name). In other words, your journal makes it clear which quest it's part of.
I just created SR:The Savior of Selveni Nethri. I vaguely remember skipping it when I was going through the quests because "Southfringe" didn't ring a bell. The basic problem is just that it doesn't have a real name, so I had to come up with one and I had to manually create the page, instead of having the bot do it. It's possible there are a couple other similar quests that I accidentally skipped, so let me know if you notice any.
--NepheleTalk 16:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
K. I wasn't sure how automated you approached their creation. Discovered another yesterday with Ysolda, where she begins buying Sleeping Tree Sap for 150 gold. Not sure if its an actual one like the farmers who buy produce or miners who buy ore. Thanks! Playing this one on the 360 so no construction kit to explore the stuff myself. --Bwross 01:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Ysolda's quest is SR:Sleeping Tree Cave (quest) (and also has a redirect at SR:Speak to Ysolda about Sleeping Tree Sap). One thing that definitely needs to be done is add more links/references to all of the quests. Many of the quests at SR:Dungeon Quests probably need to be added into the tables used on SR:Miscellaneous Quests. And related quests need to be filled in on NPC and place pages. It's not like any of us really have much spare time -- and I know you've already been doing a huge amount of work filling in pages. I'm just saying that I know it's still hard to always find the actual quest you might be looking for, but hopefully it will get better over time. --NepheleTalk 01:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Skyrim:The Whispering Door - Quest begins as a rumor from the publican of The Bannered Mare (not sure if The Drunken Huntsman has it as well). Starts as an objective "Talk to Bulgruuf about his troubled child". Misc Quest completes after talking to Bulgruuf and the actual quest itself begins. Didn't see this text built into quest stages like some of the other ones. Not sure if the game is treating it as an entirely separate misc quest or if its just missing from the Quest Stages for The Whispering Door. Also interested to know if Hulda is the only one who can start this or if Ysolda can begin it should Hulda die. I've read she takes over as publican if Hulda dies.--Bwross 16:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I've added Skyrim:Ask about Balgruuf's strange children and I've also tried to track down all the other similar "Pointer" quests that serve as lead-ins to the Daedric Quests, and listed them at Skyrim:Daedric Quests. As for who can start it, I can't tell at this point. There are a few different ways quest givers are associated with quests, and this quest uses one of the methods that I haven't gotten around to decoding yet. --NepheleTalk 17:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim categories[edit]

Your an admin here right? Please check my three most recent edits. Another user was changing the categories, but his changes aren't how other similar categories for other games are set up. Am I right to revert him (twice now), or is he doing something that's okay?76.181.75.250 22:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Continuing to alter the categories will turn this into an edit war, which definitely isn't appropriate, regardless of how we ultimately want the categories arranged. From my point of view, I'd like to see it consistent for all the games, but beyond that I can see arguments for either arrangement. Start a discussion on an appropriate talk page (i.e., the talk page for one of the categories), and see what feedback other editors have. But honestly I'm not sure you should expect much feedback because it's not exactly an urgent priority right now -- we probably have a few hundred categories that haven't even been created yet. --NepheleTalk 23:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

large pictures[edit]

Sorry to bother, but I was wondering if there's any way of uploading larger images to the wiki? to be specific, I'm creating maps for the various cities (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-Map-Whiterun.png for example) and having to compress from 20>2MB really takes away the quality. Vaag256 02:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Simply changing them from png to jpeg should dramatically reduce the image size without any change in quality. And any images of this size should be in jpeg format. Changing the upload limit is likely to require multiple changes to server settings (i.e., not just wiki settings) and I doubt it's necessary. --NepheleTalk 02:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism[edit]

Just an FYI, the main "Featured Articles" page got nailed. I'm on a smartphone, so it's not so easy to fix or even navigate, but I see you doing lots of edits right now so figured you'd be the best shot for fixing. Thanks! Oh, feel free to kill this, too, once resolved (which I'm sure you will, being your talk page and all, hee) -- Highyena

I've cleaned it up. Thanks for pointing out the problem. --NepheleTalk 02:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Awesome, kudos to you! I actually thought you caught this a little earlier, only to realize my phone had loaded a cached page from before the naughty edit, oops. Geeze, you're like some sort of whirlwind with all these fixes! -- Highyena 02:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking to help[edit]

Hi there, I was wondering if there was anything for the Skyrim pages that needed to be done, I want to try to help out either by editing or writing information into the articles and saw you were an active admin. So far I have been trying to clean up the skill pages specifically the notes sections but love the wiki and want to try to help out with the articles. Thanks --Lord.Baal 06:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Right now, probably nearly any Skyrim article needs work, and any answer depends largely upon what you enjoy doing (as well as what platform you're on). But if you're looking for some specific places to start, the first two things that come to mind are:
  • Add content to the empty placeholder pages listed at :Category:Skyrim Empty Pages
  • Add related quests to pages so people can find quests more easily. For example, take the list of quests at Skyrim:Miscellaneous Quests, and for each quest, check whether it's listed on the pages of all NPCs and places/dungeons involved in the quest.
There are also some ideas listed at UESPWiki:Task List -- both in the General and Skyrim sections. --NepheleTalk 20:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

orcish armor[edit]

> (cur) (prev) 21:21, 5 December 2011 Aliana (Talk | contribs) (14,247 bytes) (→Leveled List Info: i'm 22 and have an orcish shield - and i think i got it at *20*, since i've only been crafting for the last level-plus) > (Undo revision 803311 by Aliana (Talk): 25 is the number directly from the game's leveled list) I figured it had to be, but... that shield unquestionably showed up at 22 at the latest, so unless it was a placed item, the table is nonetheless wrong. It might be that one of the patches changed it since you pulled the data or something bizarre like that, but I've got a savegame of a level 22 char with an Orcish shield, and I'd only just started crafting at that point, so it had to come from *somewhere* in the world.  :) I guess we'll find out in January. Oh, hang on: if you think back to Oblivion, and Goblins, this would hardly be the first time that a leveled list has had the wrong shields in it at the wrong levels. The table may well be right for armor (I haven't had ANY Orc *armor* drop at all yet), but I bet it's wrong for shields. Aliana 08:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The numbers aren't wrong, even for shields. Rather I think the problem is the assumption that leveled lists work the same way as in Oblivion.
I've checked specifically for Orcish Shields, and for all eight of the leveled lists that generate those shields, the listed level is 25. I'm reading the patches as well as the original game data. Having the CK isn't going to change anything -- it's just going to list the exact same numbers, because those are the numbers in the game data, regardless of how you choose to display them.
Instead, I think the discrepancy is that the game shifts leveled lists according to the difficulty of the dungeon that you're in. Perhaps all lists get shifted down by a few levels in a difficult dungeon, or else the level of the dungeon dictates the lists instead of the level of the player. In either case, we still want to document the fundamental levels as taken from the leveled lists on pages such as Skyrim:Armor -- just as we document the base armor rating instead of listing the armor ratings for individual players. --NepheleTalk 15:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Anything's possible, but "minimum" is clearly wrong, so the s/minimum/standard is an elegant solution until we can get a better understanding of things, whether it comes from the CK or ingame. I'd give you a cookie... but I eated it. :) Aliana 15:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm still getting strong indications that shields are special. They seem to consistently be the first pieces of any "new" set, and along with the Orcish one from earlier I now have an *enchanted* Ebony one, again at a level where it "shouldn't" be possible for it to have appeared. I like the "Dungeon Level Adjustment" theory, and it's as good as any other one for now, but whatever the reason is we obviously don't have the whole story yet. Aliana 17:02, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Just FYI, the adjustment appears to be up to *12* levels, which is a lot more than I was expecting, but doesn't seem at all unreasonable given that you can craft Daedric at level 9 anyway if you really want. Shields still "feel" special to me, but it could easily just be the luck of the draw on too small a sample size so far. Aliana 08:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

fonts[edit]

Regarding the font not loading on linux, that's fixed now.(if it still doesnt show for you, refresh your cache) Turned out to be that x11+gtk couldnt handle blanked out glyphs, so I removed those glyphs from the font set all together. The result is that when you now type a formerly blanked out glyph, it simply gets replaced with a normal character from a different char set. (for example, the letter a isn't in the dragonscript font, so it just types a normal a instead.)

It can now serve any browser supporting the @font-face tag, so with the exception of firefox 3.4, internet explorer 4.0 and lower versions of those, we should be good. besides, those people have far worse things to worry about than a font not showing. :p

As per the wiki integration, Alfwyn tested it by including the css part in common.css, and according to his wiki log the font only gets downloaded when looking at a page that uses the font. For more specific information you can ask him :p

Here's the testurl again: http://mnavers.net/shapes/fonts/test/DragonscriptRegular-demo.html
all needed files can be found in this folder http://mnavers.net/shapes/fonts/test2/

as per the syntax to be used on the pages, that would simply be <*font face="DragonscriptRegular" > DRAGONTEXT GOES HERE<*/font>
(*'s added so the wiki doesnt interpret it here :p ) Vaag256 09:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, I think it's in place:
DRAGONTEXT GOES HERE
Except you'll probably have to do Ctrl-F5 to get the new CSS to load. (Once we're ready to go forward with it properly, I can make a tweak to the wiki's styleVersion which will ensure everyone's using the newest CSS).
Can you take it from there? --NepheleTalk 20:12, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Yup, sounds good, think I'll start with one of the pages to test it out (see if anyone has trouble viewing) and then turn it into a template if everything checks out.
Once everything is working, we can also add it for dwemer/daedric fonts, thanks! :) Vaag256 20:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Vaag: is there any way to increase the amount of whitespace between words in the font definition? Or do we just need to manually add something like word-spacing:0.5 em to the font tag whenever we use it? --NepheleTalk 17:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to say, i've had problems using it. I tried on my user page, but all I got was the plain text really scrunched up with no spacing. Is this a problem with .css not updating or something similar? --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 17:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
EDIT: Found it, lack of caps. :) --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 17:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
new set of fonts at http://mnavers.net/shapes/fonts/test2/ , larger spacing Vaag256 19:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
The font doesn't look good in Google Chrome, because the font lacks the space glyph. Other browsers are smart enough to fall back to the default font for the space, but Chrome isn't. Can the space be added to the font?-CoolGamer 20:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Space is (at some point soon) being added. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 20:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
extra long spaces is the one I just linked to, neph has to install it on the wiki servers and your cache will have to be refreshed Vaag256 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I've uploaded the new fonts. I'm not sure whether browsers will automatically grab the updates or whether you need to do ctrl-F5 to get them. Does that look better now in Chrome? --NepheleTalk 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, now the font is ok in Chrome. -CoolGamer 20:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

added a few examples on Vaag256/Sandbox , normal size 5 looks best to me Vaag256 20:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I could really use your expertise![edit]

Hey Nephele! I know you are busy (and your output never seizes to amaze me), but I’d be REALLY happy if you could look something up for me. I think it’s a hard one, but it’s impossible to figure out in-game, so maybe you can crack the code. Question is quite short, though: How do you trigger the Blood on the Ice quest? As evident on this talk page, people can’t agree on what to do and when. I have spent the last 5 days trying to write a full walkthrough for this complex nightmare, so obviously, knowing how to trigger it (what conditions must be met) would make me the happiest camper on the site. Just when you have the time. I have in the neighborhood of 30 suggested bugs to test before launching, even if I must admit I’m thrilled to hear your answer. Thanks in advance! --Krusty 23:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I looked into this a bit last night, and got nowhere. It's tied into the script variables for the quest, and I haven't even started to understand scripting yet. I'm unlikely to make any progress any time soon, either. --NepheleTalk 17:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
If you can dump out the scripts and convo-nodes/whatever easily and they're not too epic, put them on my talk page and I'll take a look. 30ish bugs hints that they ARE epic tho, so...
Krusty: if Nephele still hasn't had a chance by the time the CS eventually shows up, prod me. Aliana 19:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
If you want to try to make sense out of the quest conditions (the CTDA fields for the quest), be my guest:
Condition Operator Cond Value Cond Function Cond Param1 Cond Param2 Function Ref CIS2
== 0 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230592 0
== 0 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230576 0
== 0 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230608 0
== 1 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230784 0
== 1 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230768 0
== 1 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230800 0
== 1 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230864 0
== 1 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630230848 0
== 0 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630231024 0
== 0 GetVMQuestVariable Blood on the Ice (0x0001f7a3) 630231040 0
In particular, the second parameter for the GetVMQuestVariable function is supposed to be (see here) the "VM Variable Name" but I have no idea how to convert a number such as 630231040 into a VM Variable Name. It's probably related to decoding the quest's VMAD Field, but I haven't wanted to get into that yet, especially when I'm not even sure it's going to help. --NepheleTalk 19:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay - that's going to be simple/generic stuff like "has talked to person x", "has found item y", and so on, but yeah: without the CS available to follow the breadcrumbs, it'll take far more time than is sensible to actually tie all those to the scripts that should be setting/checking them and advancing the quest stages. It really sucks that the CS won't be out until after the "free time" holiday period, but there's nothing we can do about that. It's just going to have to wait. :( Aliana 22:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Skyhaven Temple freeform quests[edit]

I just noticed a suspicious absence of the "Bring a follower to Delphine" quest from the wiki in general. I created now the page Skyrim:Rebuilding the Blades, but I'm not sure why it wasn't bot created. I leave the other FreeformSkyhavenTemple quests alone for now since I don't have them in my log and a bot probably has a better chance of getting all the details right. --Alfwyn 20:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know either why they were skipped. In any case, I've now added pages for the other two quests. Thanks for pointing out the issue. --NepheleTalk 21:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Trail[edit]

I've hit a snag with {{trail}}, since I want to the remove the (faction) portion on quest pages such as Skyrim:First Lessons. I haven't really familiarized myself with this template, and was wondering if you knew a work around. elliot (talk) 21:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I've just had a go, I know nothing of the template so can you check the results? --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 21:58, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I tried that. I was just wanting to avoid getting rid of the cats. But if we have to manually add them, then it's what we'll have to do. I guess I should have mentioned that. elliot (talk) 22:00, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Ahhh, sorry, can that be inbuilt into the template somehow? --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 22:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Probably the easiest thing to do is use nocat=1 and then manually add the correct categories. It should be possible to change {{Trail/Section}} to automatically create a version of the link that doesn't display the disambig, but rpeh wrote that template, and at first glance I don't recognize what the template's doing, so I'd rather not mess with it. --NepheleTalk 22:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Since my idea was a miserable fail, I will just do it the normal way (unless someone can change it and make it work). elliot (talk) 22:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

City Summary[edit]

So, I went ahead and made {{City Summary}} so the city pages would be consistent. Can you look at it and let me know if there are any major issues? A pair of second eyes would help out a lot. Also, I had to do that dumb table-in-a-table trick to get the font to align correctly, so if you know any better options, please let me know. Thanks. elliot (talk) 22:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Table sorting[edit]

I wish you had started some type of discussion with me, since they actually do help the sorting. Right now they are sorted from Novice to Master. If people toy with the other sorts, as of now there is nothing they can do to get it back except reload the page, which is an inconvenience. If you are going to make it sortable, then actually make it work. Additionally, the size they add are minuscule, so that really isn't a major sticking point. elliot (talk) 07:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd intentionally left that out when generating the pages because I didn't think it was necessary when the tables were sorted the right way to start with. Users can get back the original sort by just clicking twice more on whichever column they'd used in the first place. Plus pages such as SR:Spells are pretty huge, so adding some 5KB to the HTML version of the page seems significant. I've spent the entire day working on generating those tables, rather than just a couple minutes quickly glancing at the results, so I'm not sure why you think it's my responsibility to start a discussion about this one minor detail. --NepheleTalk 07:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I just think you are removing a beneficial template for a trivial reason. It's not a huge deal or anything; however, just because you made the tables doesn't mean they can't be changed (I actually spent 30 minutes toying around with the tables). elliot (talk) 10:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Links I cannot source[edit]

I recently moved Lore:Rifton to Lore:Riften but theres four links I (or Krusty who helped me) could find, i'm at a loss where they are. My find function couldn't find any '"Rifton" that where links. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 19:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean with 'Links I cannot source', but the four pages are Daggerfall:Biography of Queen Barenziah, Morrowind:Biography of Barenziah v II, Skyrim:The Real Barenziah, Skyrim:Biography of Queen Barenziah. However, I think it's best to unprod the page, as the spelling 'Rifton' is used multiple times in each book. The page could function as a redirect. Wolok gro-Barok 19:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah nevermind. However, I still think the redirect should be left in place. Wolok gro-Barok 19:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I meant (sorry to be unclear) "Links I cannot source, and because I can't find them I therefore can't change them" Or something like that, at anyrate. I'll unprod the because someone from DF might search for Rifton, but i'd like to avoid using links to redirects. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 19:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, Wolok's right, we probably do want to keep "Rifton" as a redirect since it is a spelling that has been used in the past. However, as for the original issue, it was just because those pages transclude pages that had previous included links to "Rifton". It can take a while for secondary pages like "what links here" to get updated information about transcluded pages. If you're in a rush, you can do dummy edits (add/delete a space) to force the database to fully update all the info about the page. --NepheleTalk 19:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Just to note, i've unprodded the redirect at Rifton. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 19:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Miscellaneous quest tables[edit]

Do you have any ideas on ways to separate the miscellaneous quests (ones that are put in the miscellaneous section of the quest journal) from the "big" quests that don't fall under any particular category? Also, would it be better to have these pages have the quest in the first column and sort that way? Chris3145 21:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to change it, but are too busy for the work, I could take it on. Chris3145 21:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I didn't put the quest first in those tables because that's not how the tables are organized -- they are specifically organized by quest giver. Therefore, a quest such as 'Quest all Drunks Have' appears multiple times in the full set of tables at SR:Miscellaneous Quests. I think listing the quest first will give readers the impression that a particular entry is supposed to provide all the information about that quest, instead of realizing that it only gives information about that particular quest-giver's version of the quest. But that's just my opinion.
As for separating quests that appear in the "Misc" section from the big quests, that's a major limitation of what I've done so far. At this moment I can't tell the difference between those types of quests from the game data. So it's very likely that I've dumped some non-misc quests on the Miscellaneous Quests page. It would be good to find some type of category for all of the big quests, but without being able to identify the big quests, it's impossible for me to come up with categories for them.
In any case, I don't have any current plans to do any more work on quest stuff (other than post pages for any missing quests that still pop up). So any progress you can make on continuing to organize/clean up the quests would be great. I definitely don't see what I've set up so far as being the final quest organization -- in part because of problems like not being able to identify the big quests. Everything I've been doing lately is based mostly on spur-of-the-moment decisions and doing whatever's necessary to get more information posted on the site, rather than properly thinking through the entire big picture. --NepheleTalk 22:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Keyword missing quests, T01DegaineFavor seems to be missing. We might combine it with The Heart of Dibella later on, but I haven't figured out the (quest objective assigned) stuff yet, so a quest stage table would be helpful. --Alfwyn 22:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
OK, I've added the stages to Heart of Dibella, as the easiest way to just get the data added (since the quest doesn't have a proper name). Feel free to do whatever you want with moving the info around. --NepheleTalk 22:17, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Math formula display[edit]

Not sure who to ask about this--any chance we could get support for display of TeX math formulas? MediaWiki documenation. --Evil4Zerggin 04:35, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Coming of Age Quest[edit]

Skyrim:Coming of Age - I went here and there's a quest, but I never got any objectives or anything. If its the one that involves Salma and Been-Ja its bugged and acted like a Free-Form event. Could use some insight on this one.--Bwross 14:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it has something to do with Salma and Beem-Ja, but other than that I can't tell you much. As it says on the page, all of the quest stages are empty -- there are no objectives; there's no text that gets displayed in your journal. I'm not sure how that means it's bugged, though, or "like a Free-Form event". As far as the game data is concerned, there's no real distinction between quests, miscellaneous objectives, world interactions, free-form events, whatever -- they are all just different types of quests. Which is one reason why it's hard for me to know how to draw the line between what quests need to have pages and which don't. --NepheleTalk 16:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay I'll look it over later. It was a weird dungeon quest in that there was no quest or objectives. You just talk to them and they start running through the dungeon eventually leading to the end boss and a twist. I don't know how the reward triggers. I don't remember getting it. Reminded me of the things that are freeform like when you encounter a Stormcloak Prisoner being lead by Imperials.--Bwross 16:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Perk Trees[edit]

While I'm still not entirely sure if I should be doing these, can you tell me if there is any way to determine the correct coordinates for the markers besides trial and error? --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I get them out of powerpoint, after resizing the image to be 10" wide. But actually I've already grabbed all the missing perk trees. I got the screenshots last night, but haven't taken the time yet today to go back and upload them. --NepheleTalk 04:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, that's lucky. I was going to do the rest, but if you already have them ready, I'll leave it to you. Save me the effort. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 05:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

City Maps[edit]

Something myself and Vaag256 have been doing (slowly) over the past two or three weeks is making City Maps for Skyrim (equivalant to the OB City Maps). I have uploaded two City maps, with a third part numbered. No idea when the rest will make it. But . . . . another map came about here. After a quick quiz in IRC with Krusty no decision was made as to which was better, so input appreciated :)

Map 1 (Numbered in OB-Style) - Riften

Map 2 (Words instead of numbers, no Key needed) - Whiterun

Example of Oblivion (this is the one I use as a base for my Riften map) - Imperial City - Market District

Thanks in advance, just wondering which is preferred before I do any changes --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 18:07, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

First, all I can give you is my opinion -- I can't make a decision. Second, with Skyrim at this point, getting anything done is probably more important than doing it correctly.
With that said, however, I do prefer the numbered version, for several reasons:
  • Text on maps tends to block/obscure too much of the map. The text also tends to be made as small as possible to avoid obscuring the map -- which in turn makes the text far too difficult to read.
  • Text on maps cannot be readily corrected if it contains mistakes
  • The names of all locations on the map need to be provided as wiki-links. So even if the map shows the names, there still needs to be a key next to the map listing the names.
It also occurs to me that we can enhance the numbered version of the map to make location names pop up when someone hovers over a marker on the map -- using the same {{Image Mark}} template used on the Skill perk trees, or a variant of it. That might even be a better way of doing the numbers on the map -- especially if someone wanted to create numbered versions of File:White_pog.png. That would allow the size of the numbers to be independent of the scale of the map. --NepheleTalk 19:18, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks :D I never even thought of using the pogs :) I *might* still have some of the originals lying about somewhere to play with, i'll look into it using the Skill Perk Tree way --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 19:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
And thinking about it more... instead of creating numbered pogs, we can have Image Mark place a letter/number centered in the middle of the pog. Which ultimately gives us more flexibility. Including options such as different pog colors for different types of place (e.g., white for basic homes, yellow for stores, green for inns, whatever). And perhaps some type of letter code for type of store ('B' for blacksmith, 'G' for general goods, 'A' for apothecary, 'S1'/'S2'/S3' for stalls?). Just throwing ideas to think about.... (I'm also thinking this might be a better way to go for dungeon maps, too) --NepheleTalk 19:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and updated the template to handle this. elliot (talk) 22:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The perfect cure[edit]

Hey Nephele! Just wanted to add a bit of explanation on my revert to The Only Cure. It seems like you can only deliver the four required items to Kesh the Clean – tested it with a Ruby and a Silver Ore, and the dialogue to accept the items would not trigger. When I picked up the correct items again, his dialogue was immediately there. Just wanted to clarify that I tested this. I'm also interested in why the other items were added, simply to figure out if we have a bug of sorts. Thanks! --Krusty 19:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks for checking on that. Looks like I jumped to the wrong conclusion. My best guess is that the info I found was how the quest was originally coded, but then they subsequently changed it.
I based the info it on a list named DA13KeshItemsList -- implying it's the list of items accepted by Kesh for DA13 (i.e., The Only Cure) -- which contains Vampire Dust, Deathbell, "rubies", and "silverItems", where rubies and silverItems expand to the list of items I put on the quest page. On top of that, I checked the quest talk page and misread this discussion, thinking it was saying that the normal rubies were accepted. But if the other items aren't actually accepted, then the quest scripting must not be using DA13KeshItemsList. --NepheleTalk 22:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

NepheleBot and Eorlund Gray-Mane[edit]

For some reason NepheleBot duplicated the faction list for Eorlund Gray-Mane [1]. And the bot should probably learn to prefix parameters containing an equal sign with the positional argument. I just thought you may want to know about it. --Alfwyn 00:52, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Hm, another thing, it insists on recreating Skyrim:Snow_Bear_(creature) as duplicate of Skyrim:Snow_Bear for some reason, sorry for stomping so much on a immensely helpful bot. --Alfwyn 00:59, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out the issues. I'd noticed the duplication on Eorlund, and then couldn't find the right page again when I wanted to go back and debug it. As for Snow Bear, it's an issue that I've fixed in the underlying code, but the last bot run took a short cut and reused an earlier set of output -- I was trying to just quickly get all of the classes updated to use disambig'ed links and forgot about the four misnamed pages that had been in that batch. --NepheleTalk 22:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Hold Data for Map Markers?[edit]

A very quick question - I saw your edit and note re: the guide says Cold Rock Pass is Hjaalmarch, game data says Whiterun. I'm curious where the game data information came from? Wondering what tool / source you are using, and if you can point me to it? It would be great to have that information. Relight 02:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm using code that I've written myself to read the game data. Some of the info on the game data format is at Skyrim Mod:Mod File Format, but most of what I've been doing to decode the data has been happening independently of the Mod File Formats documentation, so there are significant chunks that probably aren't written up anywhere yet. You might also want to check the SkyEdit tool that Daveh's been working on. --NepheleTalk 22:43, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thane of Falkreath[edit]

Console command setstage favor258 15 provides the error message "stage 15 not found." Console command setstage favor258 20 adds the objective to the journal if the "assist the people of falkreath" objective is not complete. How do you figure that the quest starts at stage 15, again? ThuumofReason 01:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The info comes from the game data, where that objective appears under stage 15. Specifically, in the QUST record, that objective is the NNAM field listed under QOBJ=15. However, this is one of several cases where the quest index listed for an objective does not have any corresponding entry in the quest stage part of the quest data -- which is why you can't use that index with a setstage command. --NepheleTalk 01:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

NPC Levels[edit]

So, I was going to go ahead and make the categories for NPCs, but I couldn't verify some of the level information for NPCs such as Iona or Borri. Anything I could find wasn't exactly conclusive, so I am wondering if you were planning on having your bot fill those in with correct values. Thanks! elliot (talk) 00:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Once I've decoded enough of the info to feel like it's useful or even reliable, the bot will probably update all the pages. I looked at it briefly last time I did a bot update of the NPC pages -- I'm pretty sure I know where the level is stored in the NPC_ record, but I don't have a good handle on how autocalc NPCs are handled. --NepheleTalk 00:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you think it is Level Raw? Even if it is, I will stay away from this for now. elliot (talk) 00:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
No, it's not. It's actually showing up under 'gold' right now because I haven't updated the NPC_ record information yet on the server. Did I mention something about preliminary file format information? ;) But when I do update the server's information, it will become the value at Level Raw. However, as the name suggests, that is a "raw" value, and is frequently not the value that ends up being used. And right now I'm not even sure whether the autocalc flag that I'm coming up with is correct, meaning I don't really know when Level Raw does or does not get used. --NepheleTalk 00:48, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
If it's any help, I did some poking at one of the Boss NPCs, but it only added to the confusion for me: he was 21 at PC10, but 30 at PC23, so whatever the scheme is it's not a simple offset like Oblivion. Aliana 08:48, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thumbnail Error[edit]

Just an FYI, :File:SR_place_Conjuration_Ritual_Spell.jpg is causing some problems on Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell. It reminds me of the errors we had a while back; I don't remember how it was fixed though. elliot (talk) 01:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Very strange. The image disappeared on the server. There was an archived version, however. I don't have permissions to directly copy the archived version into place on the server, so instead I just re-uploaded it. The image history is still somewhat messed up, but I think it should be kept in place so it's clear who actually created the image. (Oh, but as always you'll need to do Ctrl-F5 to see that it's fixed) --NepheleTalk 01:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Solve a mystery![edit]

Take a look at the DOBJ page, wondered if you could verify for me that the last 4 always resolve to a formid or all 0s.

Think it's a lookup array, may explain/unlock all those weird non-formid/non-flag values too :) — Unsigned comment by Themendios (talkcontribs) on Dec. 25, 2011

I posted some info at Tes5Mod_talk:Mod_File_Format/DOBJ. Enjoy! --NepheleTalk 04:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Interesting. I updated the page, it looks a lot more feasible now, groups of non-sequential id types. I have no idea what the first 4 bytes are though, is there any way you can scan for some of those values in 4-byte fields? —Themendios 05:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Updated again! I realized 57-57 was "WW" and it's werewolf spell it's pointing to, looked the other 2 up and hey "WWSP" = Werewolf spell. So it's a list of variables, char[4] = formid. I wonder how many of those unknown structs have these in them, could still use your help looking those up :)
Yep, they're all four-character codes, which are recognizable abbreviations for the associated formID. I know there are a couple places where I've come across fields containing four-character codes, so I'll dig a bit and see whether they match up. --NepheleTalk 05:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Striking out on my first couple tries QUST-ALFE and SMEN-ENAM both use four-character codes. One minor discovery is that those two are using the same set of values, but it's not the same set as DOBJ. FWIW, the types of codes showing up in ALFE and ENAM are:
+------+
| ENAM |
+------+
| CRFT | 
| ARRT | 
| CAST | 
| INTM | 
| FLAT | 
| LOCK | 
| JAIL | 
| LEVL | 
| ESJA | 
| BRIB | 
| ADCR | 
| CHRR | 
| DEAD | 
| AHEL | 
| NVPE | 
| SKIL | 
| REMP | 
| ASSU | 
| AIPL | 
| AFAV | 
| ADIA | 
| SCPT | 
| CLOC | 
| KILL | 
+------+
Those fields are the ones that I can check most quickly -- because I was already reading them as strings -- but I'll explore some more to see if I can find where the DOBJ codes are showing up. --NepheleTalk 06:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Wow... I'm coming up completely blank. There are only a handful of 4-character fields that contain strings (DIAL-SNAM, QUST-ALFE, QUST-ENAM, RACE-MTNM, SMEN-ENAM), and none contain any of the strings found in DOBJ-DNAM. I've even gone through the output from a scan I did earlier of the entire Skyrim.esm file, where I analyzed every 4-byte section of every field to do preliminary data typing. There are hardly any 4-byte sections where all the bytes are in the all-caps range of 65-90, or even 0+65-90, and on closer look none of them match. Nothing in any of the multi-typed CTDA parameters. Nothing in the VMADs that I've processed (QUST-VMAD and ACTI-VMAD). Given that I haven't even found some oddball false positives, I'm almost starting to question whether I mistyped some of the SQL queries.
The only idea I have at this point is that perhaps they're shortcuts recognized by the console and/or construction kit. For example, does the console recognize player.addspell WWSP? I could see the developers wanting to have short mnemonics they can use when writing up scripts, etc. --NepheleTalk 07:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Well you prob saved me some work, I was gonna try that next ;) I doubt it's console shorthand since there's some obvious shorthands for silent mode etc, maybe they're console eg xbox/ps3 vars? Or actually hardcoded game engine variables (gibbed territory)?
I did actually know about the ENAM bit cuz SMEN was in the list of records I updated, I noted QUST with it :) Themendios 08:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Druadach Redoubt[edit]

Thanks for clearing up the histories with the renamed image. I was just wondering, was there something I should have been obliged to do? Being new to the wiki I follow the Help pages but I'm not sure if there's anything more I am meant to do if I replace a screenshot that was named incorrectly. Thanks, Nephele. The Invisible Chocobo 04:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

No problem, it's kind of my job around here ;)
Unfortunately, working with images and renaming them is somewhat awkward no matter which way around it's done, because regular editors can't do any image renaming. It saves a bit of history messiness if a replacement image gets uploaded using the existing image name, in which case you can then add a {{cleanup}} tag to the image to ask for it to be renamed.
However, it might be worth thinking about a way to make the process easier, given that we're likely to be doing alot of it over the next few months... --NepheleTalk 04:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Awesome, I'll use the cleanup tag. How do I put that in, do I just throw it at the top or something? And in terms of making it easier, the only thing I can really think of is something like adding a link to the Help:Images page in the Needs Image template, because hopefully at least some people will feel obliged to read through the guidelines if they haven't already. The Invisible Chocobo 14:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to add a parameter on {{cleanup}} such as |rename=yes that will just add it to a category. It will keep them all together and make it a little easier for the people moving the files. elliot (talk)

Ad Morrowind:Skooma[edit]

Provide some sources please, Creeper only purchase skooma. He doesn't have any in stock. Greetings, Lothar 22:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Morrowind:Creeper#Wares and Morrowind:Ashumanu_Eraishah#Wares. Any chance you previously bought it from him? --NepheleTalk 22:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Nope, not at all. Flin, Greef - of course. Can't find any skooma though. Lothar 22:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Oops, sorry for confusion, yes you were right :). I've checked one more time, and there's one skooma bottle in stock on Creeper :P. Made fool of myself ;). Greetings one more time. Lothar 22:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Roleplaying Guide[edit]

Ello. I was looking at the Guides under the Skyrim page and noticed that there was a link to a Roleplaying Guide, but one wasn't really there. Could I possibly make one? Or is someone doing that.

The reason I am asking you is because you were the first person I saw in the history of the Skyrim page. Imperialkhajiit 03:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

See UESPWiki:New Page Requests#Roleplaying Guide. --NepheleTalk 04:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Apologies[edit]

I am sorry if my patrolling resorted to you having to issue an apology, but note that I was not the only patroller that had removed the text in question. --Brf 18:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Spam?[edit]

Should this account http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Mooreandrewpage&rcid=867663 be blocked?RIM 20:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, Kitkat already marked it for deletion. Sorry.RIM 20:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Rare Salt Pile[edit]

Skyrim:Salt Pile you list that the rare salt pile can be found in Black Briar Manor. I scoured the manor a couple times, and could not find it. And there are no mentions of it on the wikia, or on gamefaqs. So I too question its existence. I added onto the page that it could not be found in game, but your previous edit seems to suggest otherwise?Minimang 01:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It's listed in the game data and it's even enabled from the start of the game (sometimes quest-related items are there but disabled until the appropriate quest is started). Its coordinates are x=-568, y=-944, z=328. Which suggests on the second floor, somewhere in the southwest section. --NepheleTalk 03:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Why is what I have contributed 'Nonesense' and 'Vandalism'?[edit]

(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:The_Prince_of_Madness)
Miz was a character suggested by the Director, in the Official Oblivion website forums of the updates to make Shivering Isles (Now old) AND Miaq the Liar (Who is a character put in the game throughout the elder scrolls series) to answer complaints and questions says things that suggest this character exists as a legend rumour through Oblivion Miaq knows when your a myth, or your real, but Miaq knows when the unknown are dead (suggesting rumours SUCH AS 'Miz') and also Miaq saying People always enjoy a good fable. M'aiq has yet to find one, though. Perhaps one day. (Because the word Fable can define a story, tale, myth, legend etc: This also shows secretive rumours of chacter SUCH AS Miz). Now, The fact that Tod Howard (director) mentioned long ago in interviews before Oblivion was released about 'Rumours of Daedric Princes, secretive and mythic characters, and forbidden/rumoured places that may actually be decided to be a fact; not a myth: 'Miz' was ONE OF THOSE UNDECIDED AND UNPREDICTABLE RUMORED QUESTIONS. You may have misunderstood that this myth or legend etc has a more complex story that what I actually contributed which is why this seems like nonesense. (My predicted theory that this was the director's 'inside joke' that broke out to the small minority of the public ). Think of me as an obsessive fan if you will, but I am slightly offended that I contribute a very little known fact to the public that fans would really like to attain to their knowledge: but instead you deny it and throw this rescource back at my face. Calling it 'nonesense' and saying how it's potential 'vandalism'. I'd understand if you misunderstood the complexity and the late arrival of this rare source of information but please don't just assume it to be negative. Therefore, I am respectfully asking you to leave this new fact as placed there in acceptance to be with the other topics on this website. I would be very grateful and appreciative if you would be so nice to do so. — Unsigned comment by 188.221.250.171 (talk) on 28 December 2011

I was hoping that perhaps giving this a day it would make more sense, but I still can't make heads or tails out of what you're trying to say. Nor can I make any sense out of the edits that you were making to SI:The Prince of Madness. The only clear point in any of it is that you are trying to describe a character named Miz, but there is no such character anywhere in Oblivion or SI, nor even any mention in dialogue of such a name. Which forces me to conclude that you are trying to add information about your personal in-game character, and such content does not belong on UESP articles.
In the context of a UESP article, such information is nonsense: "things of little or no value or importance; trash" [2]. You had already added the information to the article three times, and you were not paying any attention to the fact that editors kept removing it. If the information had any redeeming value, perhaps a discussion would have been more appropriate. But in the case of completely unconstructive edits, a warning is the next appropriate step in dealing with the edits. --NepheleTalk 18:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Not Skyrim Specific[edit]

The information that I have put on the page revises the information from Olivion, which was just a redirect to the lore page. The Elder Scroll is compleatley different in Skyrim, please dont vandalize what I have been working on.I will change this one last time.— Unsigned comment by Cole1 (talkcontribs) on 29 December 2011

The information that you are deleting is all Skyrim specific -- the infobox, the item id, the notes about what happens you get the scroll or read the scroll. The page you are editing is a page specifically describing the item that is received in Skyrim, and should follow the same format as every other scroll and book on the site. That format should not be overwritten with quest-specific information or other information that does not belong on the item page.
If you would like to discuss this further, you should use the Skyrim talk:Elder Scroll talk page, because that where the content of the article should be discussed. I am only one of several editors who has undone your edit, and therefore the discussion should not be on my talk page.
Furthermore, adding the content to the page again will constitute edit-warring, which is not productive. You should start a discussion on the article talk page and wait for that discussion to be resolved instead of ignoring what several editors have now told you. --NepheleTalk 04:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Last Challenge 0f 2011[edit]

Hey Nephele! Just a quick question, that’s been bugging me for the longest time. What exactly are the requirements to start this quest? The current info (lvl 14) is wrong (tested), and I completed the quest at level 20. Now we have yet another suggestion and so on. Can you, just for the challenge and my piece of mind, see if you can find anything in the game files? Thanks in advance! --Krusty 07:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

My best guess right now is that the level requirement is set based upon other conditions -- so 14, 20, and 26 may all be correct level requirements. This is just a guess based on vague hints in the game data, and trying to figure out what the "other conditions" might be is even more of a stab in the dark. It's possible it's related to whether you've done one of the following quests: SR:The Wolf Queen Awakened, SR:Unfathomable Depths, SR:The Only Cure, SR:The Cursed Tribe, SR:Boethiah's Calling, and SR:The Break of Dawn -- perhaps completing one of those ups the level requirement for Grimsever's Return?? By 2 levels or maybe by 3 or even 6 levels? While I'm making completely unfounded guesses, SR:The Whispering Door is also connected into this same group of quests, but perhaps it's one where its requirement level gets changed.
On the other hand, perhaps it has nothing do with that set of quests and is instead tied to how many Riften quests you've done.
The one other set of clues I can find are tied into the dialogue, but I'm not sure which exact dialogue is the first to appear, i.e. is the one that indicates that the quest is now active. But even knowing which is the first dialogue I might not be able to get much further. The conditions that I'm seeing are mysterious VMQuestVariables again -- and about the only thing I've learned about VMQuestVariables over the last couple weeks is that my first couple guesses at how to decode them are wrong. --NepheleTalk 17:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Haha, which basically means that this remains untouched until the CK can give us some answers. Anyway, thanks for checking it! --Krusty 21:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Armor (generic)[edit]

Sorry about the cleanup you needed to do, but thanks: that's probably better than me breaking the whole page.
In OB:Armor we have Full Set stuff, which has two advantages over the current SR page: it's useful info, and it nearly halves the amount of vertical space the page takes up. I did the numbers for most of the sets a while ago in my sandbox: you've changed the format since then, but if you want I can finish the last few sets and add the tempering stuff (which will have the extra advantage of only needing to appear once per set in this format). You're welcome to just take over / copy the sandbox if that's easier for you (it'll certainly be quicker, but you've got plenty of other things to do). Aliana 17:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

If you think you can make a reorg work, go ahead and do it. There are a few complications, so I haven't particularly wanted to tackle it. For example, one-off pieces such as Elven Gilded Armor, multiple-option cases such as both Steel Imperial Gauntlets and Steel Nordic Gauntlets, etc. --NepheleTalk 17:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, those are definitely not helping, and they're one of the reasons why I paused on it. Overall though, the clear majority do fit into sets, especially if Steel is simply treated as two different ones (per the formids), so I think it's probably still the best way to go even if it means putting a handful of pieces into an "orphans" section. I'll finish up the sandbox when I get a chance (although I'm expecting to get blocked in about 10 minutes, so it might be a while) and we'll see how it looks then. Aliana 18:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

TES5Mod edit[edit]

In this edit, the KYWD title for one column gets changed to HYWD. The rest of the edit looks to be legit, so I'm assuming this was just a random (if odd) typo, but can you confirm that the IDs used in the files actually are KYWD and it's not the rest of the page that's wrong? :) Thanks! Robin Hoodtalk 19:58, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The whole page is a bit strange and just seems to be a big-endian to little-endian conversion by table lookup. Not sure it is worth worrying about it. But yes, there are KYWD forms, but no HYWD ones.--Alfwyn 20:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I just cleared out some of the completely pointless stuff from the page. Whether we really need it, I don't know. It's possibly a place to document how some of the keywords are used (e.g. that "MagicDisallowEnchanting" is the keyword that controls whether enchanted items can be disenchanted). --NepheleTalk 20:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Artifact Summary space[edit]

In {{Artifact Summary}}, at one point you tried to remove the vertical spacing that's being introduced, and Elliot's tweaked it a couple of times as well. As you may have noticed, I tried again this morning, but I think I flubbed the testing slightly, leading me to believe it had been addressed when it hadn't. What I'm noticing now, though, is that in pages like Oblivion:Goldbrand, the spacing can be fixed just by removing the blank line after the {{Trail}} and categories. My question is: is that the real problem here, or did the space used to not exist using older versions of the template? I know MediaWiki can be very strange around adding blank lines at the beginning of articles and before templates, so I just wanted to confirm that this is a problem with the template (and that I'm correctly understanding what the problem is or was) before devoting any more time to it. Robin Hoodtalk 20:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Right now I really can't say for sure. It definitely seems like that template is more problematic than most -- other templates don't need to have all the preceding text smashed together on a single line. --NepheleTalk 21:16, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay, it's fixed now. Took us a while, eh? :) elliot (talk) 22:46, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Looks good. Thanks for fixing it. Robin Hoodtalk 22:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)