Template talk:Redguard Gods

Sainthood

First the sources:

• Only a few have the purity of heart and virtue to be able to take the step and learn the mysteries of Ansei. Sword Sainthood.
• so I became the first Ansei from our local hall in two generations.
• The greatest among them became known as Ansei, or "Saints of the Sword.'
• Hel Ansei is his title of Sword Sainthood.

So here we establish that all Ansei as considered saints, according to the sources. Saint Frandar, Saint Divad etc are all technically correct. There is nothing in Makela's lore that makes her out to be a special saint that is any different. She even says herself that she became a saint. The part that is confusing you is the term "Saint of the Spirit Sword". This term is used for God Leki here:

• Leki (Saint of the Spirit Sword): Goddess daughter of Tall Papa
• "Blessed saint of the spirit-sword," said the maiden," send me a sign!

However we do get 1 instance of Makela having this title. In a TES:Redguard book we see an image of Makela captioned "Saint of the Spirit Sword" - I'll concede that this can confuse things and we don't know if it was a design choice to label Makela in this way, or if it was an error - but this is where context is important. When TES: Redguard was released, god Leki had just been introduced VERY briefly into the lore via Pocket Guide to the Empire. Literally one line: "By far the most popular gods in Hammerfell are Tall Papa, and his children: Hunding, Leki and Ansei". MK didn't name God Leki as "Saint of the Spirit Sword". Only years later in Varieties of Faith was god Leki titled as such.

So for whatever reason, god Leki gets the word "Spirit" added to her title - I don't care why, but she does. Makela is called this term once as far as I know, and the context of that source doesn't match up with the lore so it holds much less water.

...But even having said all that, the who will argue that "Saint of the Sword" and "Saint of the Spirit Sword" are two totally unrelated terms that can be used to separate characters into different groups - saints and non-saints?? It not a stretch to say both terms mean the same thing. Adding the word spirit isn't anything special given that the Shehai that formed of the spirit.

If there is an obsession to add a "Saint" box to the template, then it makes more sense to either add god Leki alone, or every known Ansei. --Jimeee (talk) 08:35, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Given that she, Frandar and Divad are all honored by being buried at the Hall of Heroes, and to stop this editorial conflict we could simply add those two somewhere in the navbox, it's not like they are not part of Redguard religion if they got a temple dedicated to them. If the name Saint is improper we can name the category something akin to "Revered Persons" (like it is on Breton lore page), or "Honored Ancestors" (like it is on Reachmen navbox), or simply Sword-Saints/Ansei, since they all fit this category and the Sword-Singers are already in the navbox under section other.Tyrvarion (talk) 09:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea Tyrvarion. The four most honored Sword Saints according to the Heroes book are Hallin, Divad, Makela and Frandar. --Jimeee (talk) 09:53, 17 July 2022 (UTC)