Oblivion talk:Open

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This article seems to be missing a vital piece of information (imo). When you open a lock with an Open spell, you dont get a Bounty for it. I'm 99% sure it was that way in Morrowind too. Shall I add it to the Notes section? Lisan al Gaib 22:38, 8 January 2007 (EST)

I'm not sure if that's a fact, but I haven't had any problems with open spells. I've magically opened locks within a foot of an NPC and guard, and they haven't had any problem with it. Perhaps the construction set will have some information, sadly, the 360 version has no construction kit, so I cannot be of any help. --WerdnanoslenTalk 22:49, 8 January 2007 (EST)
I have been arrested for using open spells on forbidden doors. I don't know if it is because of the Unofficial Oblivion Patch though, as that mod seems to have "fixed" a number of things that weren't really bugs, but exploits. If that is the case, it could be noted in the article. Caralampio (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Gate Meshes[edit]

re: "Try aiming at either the hinges, the handle or a lock rather than the bars themselves. Another trick that helps is to stand to one side of the gate and cast the spell at an oblique angle rather than straight on. You're more likely to hit one of the bars this way." I tried about 50-60 times to open a gate this way and it doesn't seem to work at all. Tried close, far, oblique, straight-on, and aiming at the center, hinges, bars, frame and ground. So I had a look at it in NifSkope and the Havok type for all the gate components is OL_TRANSPARENT which can't be hit by spells. Would be interested to know if anyone's ever confirmed a gate opening with an Unlock spell. The gates affected are the same type as in prison cells. The Ayleid gates which are more solid have normal Havok and thus don't have this problem. Kivan 16:59, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Yep, that would match my experience. I was trying to get the gates at the entrance of Brazil Wizard's Grotto to open the other day, both of which are of type "prisonCellGate01". I tried many times with both of the two gates there, from many angles, aiming at everything I could think of. I tried both a standard open spell and a custom "Open Very Hard Lock in 10 ft on Target" spell. I ended up just using tcl to get past them ;) (since I was only there to get some screenshots and had absolutely no patience left by then to try to pick a very hard lock with 25 security skill).
It would probably be useful to collect some information on which gates can and which gates cannot be opened with spells. And would this by any chance correlate with whether or not you can shoot arrows through the gate? Or is there another Havok parameter that controls that ability? --NepheleTalk 18:18, 6 July 2007 (EDT)
PrisonCellGate01 is the only ones like this. Its clone ICBastionCellGate01, the other prison cell door (PrisonCellDoor) and the Ayleid ruin gates are not. It's the same Havok type that controls if projectile arrows and spells can get through. So if you can't shoot arrows through the others, probably shouldn't be able to with this one. I don't know why it was done this way; looks like a mistake. ICBastion has standard Havok probably so you can't shoot Valen Dreth with your starting Flare spell, and he can still talk through it. Also tried going to jail in the Leyawiin dungeon and was able to pickpocket the key from the jailor through the gate, and it uses standard Havok (OL_ANIM_STATIC). I think this is fixable, and thanks for the confirmation that it wasn't just me :^) Kivan 19:50, 6 July 2007 (EDT)
I'm pretty sure that all prison cells your sent to for prison allow you to pick pocket through. This is so that if you can't pick a lock for the life of you but can pick pocket easily you can escape that way.Drake3555 23:39, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

Open Spells and Gates[edit]

(Following discussion moved here from a gripe talk page)

I don't know if I'm just missing something here, I'm not trying to sound like it's completely right, but why is it that the alteration spells that unlock chests, big doors, etc., don't unlock gates? I'm talking about the ones in dungeons that are practically as thin as paper. Evertime I cast an unlock spell it goes right through it, and when I try to cast it on the lock it just doesn't work, like I casted it on the wall or something. I'm a console player so keep in mind I can't use mods. I'm just wanting to know if it's a bug, or if I'm not doing something, or whatever. — Unsigned comment by Augustus4TS (talkcontribs)

The problem is with the mesh & collision boxes used for the gate. It has holes in it, so that you can fire arrows and other spells at enemies on the other side. However, this makes it very difficult to cast open spells at the gate itself. It is possible, though - you just have to be lucky with your aim. It does seem to be easier to hit the gate if you aim in the general direction of the lock, though. --Gaebrial 04:29, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
There is one type of gate, as discussed above, that is impossible to target with an open spell. But in general it is possible if you aim carefully. --NepheleTalk 13:00, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
hold on aren't there any touch open spells? i'm sure i have one...Lewbot1 09:48, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
I believe there is only one Open Spell cast on touch in the game, sold by Mraaj-Dar. It opens only Easy locks, and even then, not all of them due to a different calculation used in touch vs target. Vesna 11:51, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

() Ah yes the unwelcome guest... i just checked, well assuming he isnt dead go buy the spell off him that will solve all targeting problems ;)--Lewbot1 13:13, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

You can also make 'on touch' custom open spells if the unwelcome guest isn't strong enough for you!--Willyhead/t 15:57, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
No, you can't. Check at the spellmaking altar (or on this page, for that matter!). — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 16:50 on 13 June 2008
I got a scroll from a Dremora in an Oblivion Gate, namely Open Very Hard Lock. However, this was an 'On Touch' version which I had never noticed before. Maybe this could be used to open those 'difficult' gates? gavin19 12:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The Unwelcome Guest[edit]

Look it is on touch I was just looking at it in-game.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, no. I've just looked in the CS and it indeed shows that it is a targeted spell. Have you tried casting it? Maybe it's just a typo in the spell desc. --S'drassa T2M 21:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
What system TAO?--Corevette789 21:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
(Corevette) PS3.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Just tried it myself. Not just the description, I cast it, it was definatly on touch. Game of the Year addition for the PS3, regardless of what the construction set might say, it was on touch. 22:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
You could both be right. There is unquestionably no way, at all, ever, to obtain an On Touch Open on the PC, even via the CS. On Target has always been a very odd choice though, and it's certainly not impossible that Bethesda decided to "fix" it on a different platform, or even did so accidentally. --Aliana 23:55, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

() But it's even more odd, in my opinion, to have only this particular spell be preformed on touch, while every other one is still on target. 22:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

True, but I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Trust me: those of us on the PC would LOVE to be able to create OnTouch unlock spells. Think of it as partial compensation for having to suffer through the game without UOP. :P --Aliana 06:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Yep, I'd like to make an on touch unlock spell as well - but The Unwelcome Guest is the only spell I can get that's on touch unlock. Every spell I try to create is on target, and I can't change that. But the Unwelcome Guest is always on touch for me. Which all completely boggles my mind. 19:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
(Aliana) Not disputing this you're the one with the CS but, how does it work that you can't make on touch open spells in it ? From working with the MW CS you choose Touch, Target or Self from a drop down menu in the spell you're making.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Each magic effect has a series of flags associated with it. Some, like Absorb Attribute, are touch-only. Open is target-only, which is why you can't create touch spells with it. rpeh •TCE 08:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

() To clear this up, hopefully for once and for all: The Unwelcome Guest is on touch.

  • First, and most importantly, in game it is treated as an "on touch" spell in every regard (on both PC and Xbox 360). It is described as being on touch; it is listed with all other on touch spells in your spell list; the animation when you cast it is the touch animation; you can cast it underwater. Every user above who tested the spell in-game reported that it behaves as an on-touch spell. As stated on the Style Guide: UESP's intention is to provide readers with reliable information about what they will experience while playing the game. If the spell is an on-touch spell in game, then it should be listed as on-touch spell on the site. Period.
  • Second, the construction set is wrong. It's not the only case where the construction set is wrong. Again, from the Style Guide: the CS information can at times differ with information taken from other sources. In cases where statistics shown in-game (e.g., using the console) differ from the CS, the in-game data is preferable: the purpose of the site is to describe gameplay. In this particular case, I just confirmed that the Construction Set shows "Target" for the spell. But it's just the CS applying the same flags that rpeh described, and ignoring the actual spell data. If you read the raw data from the Oblivion.esm file, in the SPEL record for The Unwelcome Guest, the value of "Type" in its EFIT Subrecord is "1", meaning "Touch". Unlike every other Open spell in the game, all of which have a "Type" of 2, meaning "Target". The game reads the Oblivion.esm file, not the Construction Set's interpretation of the Oblivion.esm file, so the game treats the spell as a touch spell. See my first point.
  • As for the somewhat irrelevant question of how the spell was created, it's likely that an old version of the construction set (the one actually used by the developers) didn't force the spell to be an on-target spell. Or else that when the developers created the spell, they had not yet declared that the effect was on-target only. Or that they didn't even use the construction set to create the spell. There's lots of ways to create game data without going through the limitations imposed by the construction set.

Therefore, I'm going to correct all of the site's documentation (or rather, restore the site's documentation to the original, correct information). --NepheleTalk 16:41, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting bug. Thanks for the follow-up, Nephele...even if you did cause me some wasted effort :) since I was just looking it up myself when I noticed that you were a few steps ahead of me (and were able to go further than I could have in any event, since I haven't so far had need to decrypt the file formats). Robin HoodTalk 17:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, now this is getting interesting. At least according to UESP Watch, the spell shows up as "On Target" in that person's game and they've posted an image to prove it. In my game, it shows up as "On Touch", both in the vendor's window and my spell list, when purchased from the female DB Murderer after all the DB quests are done. This could just be an attempt by Tiber Septim to generate a message such as this one that mentions the site, but that doesn't seem like Tiber's way...he or she enjoys tweaking our noses too much to post false information that would readily be disproven, I think. If he/she posts any relevant follow-up info like game version, etc., that differs from my own, I'll repost it here. Robin HoodTalk 18:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
This is obviously a on touch spell, I use it and its on touch --Arny 19:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, this certainly peaks my interest. One thing we should learn from this is that we shouldn't look how something appear, but actually perform it in-game. This is how The Unwelcome Guest appears (as On Touch), this is how an On Target spell appears. Sorry for not including the projectile, it's very hard to see at close range. I see the spell in my Touch spells lists, and the description describes it at such, for the record.
The problem with a Construction Set that is almost always right, is that it's hard to believe when it isn't. I think we can keep this as one of the nicer examples where the Construction Set deceives you. When you open the Oblivion.esm file, it actually does show you the correct spell, but that's because it secretly changes it the moment you edit the spell properties. You can notice this when you hit OK afterwards (without changing anything); the spell will be marked as edited, despite the fact that you didn't change anything. Try this with another spell, and hitting OK right after Edit will not result in the spell being marked as edited.
That might also explain why it's so easy for mods to contain that update. One only needs to have opened the spell and hit OK while making a mod, and the edit is included. Question is, are there official mods that alter this? --Timenn-<talk> 19:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The data for this spell hasn't been changed by any official patches or mods, as far as I can tell. Details are buried in the rest of what I'd already been writing up....
Some extra details of my investigation:
  • I know that three years ago I investigated this spell on the Xbox and confirmed that in-game the Xbox lists it as an on-touch spell. As a result, I did not do any additional Xbox testing today. For what it's worth, that test would have been (based on the date) using version 1.1.511 of the game. Also, kudos to Lurlock for immediately reaching the correct conclusion (I wonder if it's just a matter of the CS and the game not interpreting it the same way).
  • This morning my in-game tests were with the PC version of the game, US edition, original release patched to version 1.2.0416, with SI and all official mods installed (but no unofficial mods, and no unofficial patches). All of the in-game facts listed in my original comments were based on my own tests.
  • The Oblivion.esm file used for the game data is from the original version (1.0 version) of the game. However, the database I scanned to access the game data also includes a fully patched Oblivion.esm with SI (1.2.0416), and includes all official mods. So before posting any information this morning I implicitly checked all official versions of the game, and knew that the spell data had not been altered by SI or any patches. I also checked the stats for all open spells in the game (including the mod-added Fenrik's Welcome). Just to be triply sure, just now I searched for all instances of formid 0x0006d67e, and even checked that there aren't any intermediate formids that could have been changed (e.g., ENCH formids for weapon enchantments). Subsequent to the original release, the spell's data has not been modified by any of Bethesda's content. (Items that have been altered, for example, Mehrune Razor's Daedric War Axe, end up with multiple entries in the database, one with the original data, and another with the altered data).
  • I used the CS to read the Oblivion.esm file, and saw that the Construction Set was listing the spell as on-target, contrary to what I had just seen in the binary data. Incidentally, I also noticed that the spell cost was tagged as being auto-calc. After reading Timenn's comments, I went back and used that to indirectly confirm that CS is originally reading the spell as an on-touch spell, and only changing the info when you try to view it: the spell cost is originally 10; once you've looked at the spell, its increases to 15, because on-target is 50% more expensive.
  • Before making any edits, I read through all of the previous discussion on the topic (on this talk page, at M'raaj-Dar, and at List of Spells by Effect) and confirmed that my conclusions were consistent with all the facts that editors had previously reported on the site. Specifically
    • At least three people other than myself reporting that in-game the spell is on touch, including a PS3 player, therefore meaning that all three platforms have been tested. Also, meaning that GOTY, non-GOTY+SI, and pre-SI versions of the game have all been tested.
    • No reports from in-game tests stating that the spell is not on touch.
    • The only reports that the spell is on-target have come from the construction set, which I had already confirmed does not provide accurate information about this spell.
So I feel confident that my edits took into account all of the available information. If there's other data that people have been withholding from the discussion, they're free to chime in here and contribute, at which point it would be possible to respond to the additional information. --NepheleTalk 21:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

() Tiber, who has been invited to join the discussion himself <g>, brings up the possibility that his is the European version. I don't see that as being a very likely cause of the discrepancy, but it's at least conceivable. At some point, if I have the time, I'll try a fresh, no thrills install and immediately go to the DB and grab the spell, but for now, I'm treating Tiber's discrepancy as a one-off, since he's the only one reporting it as On Target in game. Robin HoodTalk 23:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I think Tiber, despite protestations to the contrary, must have installed the UOP. Although the Fix List doesn't mention it, the EFIT record is changed to switch the spell from on-touch to on-target. This may not have been intentional, as the Open Very Hard Lock scroll remains on-touch.
What I object to here is Nephele's implication that people have been lax in their checking. I think it's blatantly clear that the opposite is true: since several people have obviously used the CS and found the spell to be on-target, it is unfair in the extreme to criticise them. It's much quicker to check in the CS than in-game, and indeed some editors use the CS to check things in situations when they couldn't possibly use the game. If this is "not the only case where the construction set is wrong" then the helpful thing to do would be to post a list of cases where discrepancies occur rather than castigating editors for checking things while other editors have been absent. rpeh •TCE 05:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
You've read something differently than I did then, cuz I just went over what she said and didn't see anything that came across that way, only highlighting that there was a discrepancy between the CS and in-game. I agree, though, that it would be useful to start a page or section somewhere that lists any other such discrepancies. I remember finding one other a year or more ago, but I'm damned if I can remember even the vaguest details of what it was at this point. Robin HoodTalk 07:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
There's a list of known Construction Set discrepancies at Oblivion:Construction Set#CS Discrepancies. I added this case to the list yesterday. --NepheleTalk 15:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Hadn't found that one yet. I'll have to add it to my insanely large watchlist. :) Robin HoodTalk 17:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Rpeh was obviously referring to discrepancies like this one and not other well known problems. This is typical Nephele - deliberately misunderstanding somebody to put them down. And RobinHood70 needs to read more carefully if he cannnot see the criticism in Nephele's post. To be honest, her kind of snide remark would normally get a warning here and that is only not happening because Nephele is an admin. Pathetic. Truly pathetic. 00:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. I would take it as a personal favour if certain admins tried not to be so patronising. rpeh •TCE 05:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Creating Open on Touch spells[edit]

I've discovered that it IS possible to make such spells as an Open on Touch, or even presumably to alter existing spells. First, make a mod that creates or alters an Open spell. For testing I chose to create a new spell, Magnitude 100, so I didn't need to load Oblivion.esm in the CS - I wanted a quick test. I made the spell as On Target, saved the .esp, and exited the CS. I then opened up TES4Edit and edited the .esp so that the spell was Touch instead of Target. This is located in the Effects > Effect > EFIT > Type part of the spell record. I changed the word "Target" to "Touch", saved the .esp, activated it in OBMM, entered the game, used the console to add it to my spell list, and tested it on a nearby Hard lock (it's worth noting at this point that it was listed as a Open Needs a Key Lock on Touch). The touch spell animation played, and the door unlocked.Deadlykris 02:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's a simple proof-of-concept mod: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31487 Deadlykris 03:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Directly editing the game files will definitely work, but that's not really the point. In the standard game, it's definitely not possible. rpeh •TCE 16:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

moved from notes[edit]

  • (Un-Confirmed For all Platforms) You Cannot open Gates at all with any Spell. The Spell Will shoot right threw any Solid part of the gate you shoot at.

i moved it from notes because of the unconfirmed part and it doesn't sound very plausible (From Fear to Eternity- Eddie The Head 08:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC))

Unlock Values[edit]

Just changed the unlock values from the starting point to the entirety of the unlock scale, as it slightly confused me when I saw the calculations. Just trying to prevent any further confusion. Count Marius Caro 16:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thanks for the change! Robin Hoodtalk 06:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Unlock a lock that requires a key?[edit]

Is it possible to create a 100 points "open lock" spell with the CS (construction set), and use that to open "impossible" locked doors that would normally require a key? Cause that would be a great way of getting to areas that are supposed to be off limits, like the upper floors of the Imperial Palace which cannot be re-entered after "The Ultimate Heist". If I could create such a spell, it would allow me to get back in there and loot everything that I hadn't enough carry weight for while doing the quest, and that would be a ton of stuff... --Nv4dispbluescreen 17:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

You'd have to do something funky with scripted effects, because most of those locks are specifically scripted to only open in certain situations, or in some cases never open at all. (For example, some of the locked doors you see in the imperial sewers at the very beginning of the game actually don't go anywhere at all, so if you could somehow open them, I think you'd either see a bare stone wall behind them, or a drop into the gray nothingness outside of the map mesh.) Alternatively, since you're messing around in the CS anyhow, you might as well just make those specific locks openable without a key, though it might be tough to find all of the doors in the game that are like that, while still making sure you can't open the purely decorative doors that don't go anywhere. --TheRealLurlock Talk 02:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Tested it, and yep, that open spell can open anything, which means I can visit the Xaselm torture chambers prior to reaching the related quest of Shivering Isles, for example. The victims are there already but Relmyna of course is not. Now, the real kicker would be opening the Arcane University door and using the chironasium/enchanting altar/everything that is there without the need of being a Mages guild member, and thus without the risk of being expelled from the guild (which can happen easily while doing the Arrow of Extrication quest, for example)! Of course opening "decorative" doors would be of no use, because just like the ones in Mama Dolces (Fallout 3, but they were only Very Hard and not "Requires Key"), they will either have a solid stone wall behind them or allow the player to glitch out of the map, only to be warped back to a seemingly random place in the current cell. Now I have to go ahead and make a new character with 100 Alteration, buy the spell (I made Raminus Polus sell it for a heck of a lot of gold, and it requires 427 mana or something to cast) and use the arcane university without even being in the mages guild! :-) --Nv4dispbluescreen 11:02, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Magnitude up to, and including?[edit]

Hi all, sorry if this sounds like a silly question, and yes I've read the article I'm just still not 100% on one point. If I have for example an "open hard lock" spell, it will ALSO open easy and average locks...right? That is to say, a higher rated spell works on locks up to and including it's rating?-- 19:05, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

That's correct. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 12:43, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Thank you very much. I was almost wondering if I'd get a response given how old this page is.--TheVoicesSayHi (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2014 (GMT)